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February 12
Sorry if I'm hurting someone's sentiment, but is it just me who is seeing so much negative trend in the D forum about D itself? I don't remember seeing so much negative about Rust on rust forum and so on. Do you think it will help in reminding people not to post any negative things? It shouldn't become strict moderation, but at the same time, I really don't like seeing so much negative trend. I would even go to the extent and suggest to email Walter/Andrei in person (even if they don't agree) to vent your frustration with D, but please don't post it on the forum.

Everyone knows the current state of D and this can be improved with more volunteers. Even a small topic like some xyz library is not up to the mark is being dragged towards argument and negativity about D instead of realizing that the issue needs to be reported to the respective library author.

The community is small when compared to other languages, so it is essential to keep the positive vibe to attract larger mass (to reach the critical mass at first hand).

We need great minds from across various industries and experiences to strengthen ourselves. So please promote D with what it can offer at the moment instead of spreading negative sentiment of how it can do certain things with some missing crazy syntax sugar, etc. We know such things are being/can be worked upon.

D is a wonderful programming language and let's share awesome things we do with it.
February 13
On Monday, 12 February 2018 at 23:54:29 UTC, Arun Chandrasekaran wrote:
> Do you think it will help in reminding people not to post any negative things?

No.


> Everyone knows the current state of D and this can be improved with more volunteers. Even a small topic like some xyz library is not up to the mark is being dragged towards argument and negativity about D instead of realizing that the issue needs to be reported to the respective library author.

It is a human right..to complain ;-)

You want to take away our human rights?? It won't happen ;-)

...doing so on the forum is no big deal as far as I am concerned ... and if the complaint is important enough, the right people tend to here sooner or later. If not, their work gets discredited or people improve upon it.

and btw. Complaints aren't always legitimate complaints. People mostly see what they wan't to see.


> We need great minds from across various industries and experiences to strengthen ourselves. So please promote D with what it can offer at the moment instead of spreading negative sentiment of how it can do certain things with some missing crazy syntax sugar, etc. We know such things are being/can be worked upon.
>
> D is a wonderful programming language and let's share awesome things we do with it.

I think *very* differently, that is, I believe people should *NOT* be limited to expressing only the nice fluffy stuff we all like to hear.

You need to handle that negativity also, and not stop others from expressing it.

Negative emotions are as legitimate as positive emotions, and it a human right to express both.


February 13
On Monday, 12 February 2018 at 23:54:29 UTC, Arun Chandrasekaran wrote:
> Sorry if I'm hurting someone's sentiment, but is it just me who is seeing so much negative trend in the D forum about D itself? I don't remember seeing so much negative about Rust on rust forum and so on.

Yeah, I think it's a different community.
I'm not sure why this is the case, maybe because Rust doesn't promise to be a great language and people suffer enough from fighting their compiler all day, that they have no energy left for trolling?

All joking set apart - Rust has a few very active fanboys (like Steve Klabnik) who have a very loud, positive voice and push the crowd.
Maybe they also have better moderation and processes. For example, for D people don't like submitting Bugs on Bugzilla and rather post on the NG. I don't know the reason for this except for maybe that they don't want to create a Bugzilla account.

We should simply encourage everyone more actively to open issues instead of making threads over threads of the same issue.

> Do you think it will help in reminding people not to post any negative things?

There's also a technical solution to this: Hackernews-like up/down voting.

See e.g. https://github.com/CyberShadow/DFeed/issues/84

> It shouldn't become strict moderation, but at the same time, I really don't like seeing so much negative trend.

Yeah, it leaves a very bad impression even though D is great and some people can simply never have enough.

> I would even go to the extent and suggest to email Walter/Andrei in person (even if they don't agree) to vent your frustration with D, but please don't post it on the forum.

http://screamintothevoid.com/


> We need great minds from across various industries and experiences to strengthen ourselves. So please promote D with what it can offer at the moment instead of spreading negative sentiment of how it can do certain things with some missing crazy syntax sugar, etc. We know such things are being/can be worked upon.

Thanks a lot for this post!!
Don't let yourself get frustrated by the bad mood of some people in this NG.

The real actions and discussions happen on GitHub or Slack which have a very positive "vibe".
It's just a rather "exclusive" society on GitHub at the moment...

> D is a wonderful programming language and let's share awesome things we do with it.

Yes, I absolutely agree. Please, let's spread the word!
February 13
On Monday, 12 February 2018 at 23:54:29 UTC, Arun Chandrasekaran wrote:
> Sorry if I'm hurting someone's sentiment, but is it just me who is seeing so much negative trend in the D forum about D itself? I don't remember seeing so much negative about Rust on rust forum and so on. Do you think it will help in reminding people not to post any negative things? It shouldn't become strict moderation, but at the same time, I really don't like seeing so much negative trend. I would even go to the extent and suggest to email Walter/Andrei in person (even if they don't agree) to vent your frustration with D, but please don't post it on the forum.
>
> Everyone knows the current state of D and this can be improved with more volunteers. Even a small topic like some xyz library is not up to the mark is being dragged towards argument and negativity about D instead of realizing that the issue needs to be reported to the respective library author.
>
> The community is small when compared to other languages, so it is essential to keep the positive vibe to attract larger mass (to reach the critical mass at first hand).
>
> We need great minds from across various industries and experiences to strengthen ourselves. So please promote D with what it can offer at the moment instead of spreading negative sentiment of how it can do certain things with some missing crazy syntax sugar, etc. We know such things are being/can be worked upon.
>
> D is a wonderful programming language and let's share awesome things we do with it.

I don't see a negative trend. It's always been negative around here, and I've never understood why. It's the best language I've used by a significant margin. D is the inverse of the Lisp community, which believes the Common Lisp Hyperspec was delivered on stone tablets.

I've even raised the issue myself. Everyone complains about Walter and Andrei and the lack of tools and so on, but I see a lot of progress. I don't really care about who isn't using D or why. For many years I saw the same thing in the Linux community yet year after year I had a computer that just worked.
February 12
On Tuesday, February 13, 2018 03:15:44 bachmeier via Digitalmars-d wrote:
> I don't see a negative trend. It's always been negative around here, and I've never understood why. It's the best language I've used by a significant margin. D is the inverse of the Lisp community, which believes the Common Lisp Hyperspec was delivered on stone tablets.

I recall at least one conversation at a previous dconf about how it seemed like users of other languages like Go tended to get really ticked at you if you said anything bad about their language, whereas the D folks tended to trash their own language. One suggestion was that it was a good sign, because it showed that we felt secure enough about the language to be willing to complain about it rather than feeling that we had to defend its every flaw. I suspect that part of it is that a lot of folks seem to come to D looking for the perfect language after having be frustrated by another language like C++, and while D is a lot closer to that for many folks than other languages are, it still has plenty of flaws, and we want those flaws fixed so that it can become the perfect language. Obviously, that's not going to happen. No language is perfect, but the vocal portion of the D community does have a tendency to want to push for everything that's arguably wrong with D to be fixed, and that can result in a lot of negativity, but it can also result in things getting fixed (though that requires actually doing something about it rather than just complaining).

Sometimes, many of us do seem to lose sight of the fact that even though D isn't always where we want it to be, it's far closer than the languages that we came from, and it's awesome even if it's not necessarily as awesome as it theoretically could be.

- Jonathan M Davis

February 13
On Tuesday, 13 February 2018 at 03:15:44 UTC, bachmeier wrote:
>
> I don't see a negative trend. [snip]

I don't know if there's a negative trend or not, but every 2 or 3 months there's inevitably a thread about things D needs to add or improve that tends to devolve into complaints about the language.
February 13
On Tuesday, 13 February 2018 at 02:29:46 UTC, Seb wrote:
> On Monday, 12 February 2018 at 23:54:29 UTC, Arun Chandrasekaran wrote:
>> Sorry if I'm hurting someone's sentiment, but is it just me who is seeing so much negative trend in the D forum about D itself? I don't remember seeing so much negative about Rust on rust forum and so on.
>
> Yeah, I think it's a different community.
> I'm not sure why this is the case...

it's as you say...it's a different community.

Those communities that believe the community is more important than the individual, are the very communities that like to shutdown any negativity about that community.

It happens at the levels of countries (North Korea, Russia, Syria, Iran, and so many others).

It happens at the level of organisations too (corporate and non-corporate), and even at the social community level.

I think the D community is a very different social community, where individuals feel free to 'assert' themselves. That is a good thing in my opinion.

So negativity is a sign of healthy community (i.e. one that doesn't try to exert itself over the individual).

Now I don't equate that negativity with bullying or such things, i.e. actions that set out to do harm to others. That cannot be tolerated in any community.

But negativity is not harmful, except in those communities that want to exert their power over the individual.

This is essentially why negativity does not bother me. It's all a matter of perspective.


February 12
On 02/12/2018 06:54 PM, Arun Chandrasekaran wrote:
> Sorry if I'm hurting someone's sentiment, but is it just me who is seeing so much negative trend in the D forum about D itself?

1. Can't fix a problem without first identifying a problem.

2. "We're all entitled to our opinions" does NOT come with the qualification "...but only if it's a happy glowing positive opinion that sprouts rainbows and makes the rabbits and lions sing together in blissful harmony."

> I don't remember seeing so much negative about Rust on rust forum and so on.

Rust has pretty much gone on record as deliberately using social engineering to squelch all disagreement by way of drumming out any and all dissenters:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIageYT0Vgg

We don't do Orwellian here.

> Do you think it will help in reminding people not to post any negative things?

No. God no. Again, that's straight out of the 1984 playbook. (Or maybe it's more Brave New World - don't know, don't care, it's sick and disturbing either way.)
February 13
On Tuesday, 13 February 2018 at 04:29:44 UTC, Nick Sabalausky (Abscissa) wrote:
>
> Rust has pretty much gone on record as deliberately using social engineering to squelch all disagreement by way of drumming out any and all dissenters:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIageYT0Vgg
>

Hey..that was interesting.

1/3 of them there, just cause they're interested in the community side and couldn't care less what language it is.

Here at D, we don't give a stuff about the community, we just want a language to solve our problems - and we don't all have the same problems.

Ok..that's a little overstated...community is nice too... but problems that need to be solved are more important.

Lets ensure we promoting D to those that want to solve problems.

February 13
On Tuesday, 13 February 2018 at 04:29:44 UTC, Nick Sabalausky (Abscissa) wrote:
>
> Rust has pretty much gone on record as deliberately using social engineering to squelch all disagreement by way of drumming out any and all dissenters:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIageYT0Vgg
>

a "friend of the tree"..  timepoint = 13:15

seems like Rust community are incorporating psychological manipulation techniques..similar to what scientology does.
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