Bruno Medeiros wrote:
> Sean Kelly wrote:
>> Bill Baxter wrote:
>>> Bill Baxter wrote:
>>>> David Qualls wrote:
>>>
>>>> After 20 years of C/C++ my use of && and || was pretty instinctual, but after just a few months of working with Python on the side I found I started typing 'and' and 'or' without thinking about it.  
>>>
>>> I think my meaning wasn't so clear so let me rephrase.
>>>
>>> It took no time to get used to 'and/or' when learning python.  I don't recall ever mistakenly using '&&' in my first few python attempts.  But what happened after a few months (and continues to today) is that I sometimes type 'and/or' in *C++* code (and now *D* too) when I mean &&/||.
>>>
>>> I think it's just because in my head I'm *thinking* 'if this and that' as I type.  My brain recognizes 'and' as a legal keyword from somewhere and so my fingers type it.
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, if && and || are to be eliminated wholesale, the benefit will be seen as too small to be worth the pain of fixing all old code. Furthermore Walter believes that C/C++ syntax must be good enough or it wouldn't have survived so long (or something like that).  And he believes that D should look and behave like C/C++ as much as possible to ease the transition for C/C++ refugees (hence the decision to not fix how switch works).  He also believes that symbols (!@#$%^&*) should be used wherever possible instead of new keywords (hence we have ':' showing up everywhere for all kinds of different purposes, and "static" with even more meanings than in C++).
>>>
>>> It could be possible to add 'and' and 'or' as _synonyms_, but that smacks as too many ways to do the same thing, and adds two keywords for something for which there is already another way to do it.  It doesn't let you do or express anything you couldn't before.
>>
>> For what it's worth, 'and' and 'or' as synonyms for '&&' and '||' already exists in C/C++.  Trigraphs are a largely unknown feature that many appear to dislike, but I have read a reasonable argument that they are useful for teaching new programmers.  
> 
> What do C trigraphs have to do with 'and' and 'or' as synonyms for '&&' and '||'?

Nothing :-p  I was confusing two similar but unrelated language features.


Sean

Ary Manzana wrote:
> Bill Baxter escribió:
>> David Qualls wrote:
>>> I just compiled my first D function (adapted from C), and had to
>>> replace all my 'and' 'or' and 'not's with the arcane &&, ||, and !
>>> from prehistoric C to get it to compile.
>>>
>>> iso646.h has been a part of C for several years.  Perl, C++ and
>>> possibly other languages have all adopted 'and', 'or', and 'not'
>>> as part of their grammar.
>>>
>>> I write software that will be maintained by non-programmers
>>> (mathematicians, who would prefer that I use Fortran).  Lots of
>>> funny symbols in source code (like && || !) make it difficult to
>>> read for the non-immersed (ah, who am I kidding, I even have
>>> trouble reading it now and then).
>>>
>>> Is there any future to D incluing the logical operators in
>>> English, as opposed to &!|%'ish?  (I didn't mention it, but 'mod'
>>> might also be a good (easy for non-programmers to understand)
>>> substitute for '%'.)
>>>
>>> David
>>
>> +1
>>
>> After 20 years of C/C++ my use of && and || was pretty instinctual, but after just a few months of working with Python on the side I found I started typing 'and' and 'or' without thinking about it.  It makes complicated expressions more readable and would fit in great with D's more "modern" look.
>>
>> As noted before, I'm also in favor of allowing 'in' to replace ';' in foreach statements.
>>
>> --bb
> 
> I guess the main reason to stick with symbols is some compatibility with C/C++ source code.
> 
> Anyway, I also like the idea of words instead of symbols. You benefit from readability and it's also much more simpler to type (i.e. you don't you shift or look in a new keyboar for them).
Well..

I'm an spanish programmer:

  My code is written using Spanish terms like "valor" vs "value", "irSiguiente()" vs "goNext()"...

the best of algebra symbology is the language independence:

	[x..y] vs "Between x and y"
	x < y  vs "x less than y"
	a.b    vs "the b of a"  (Director Lingo used this sintax)
	(a)b	vs "cast b to a"
	a = b  vs "set value of a to value of b"
	a == b vs "a equals to b"
	{ stamens } vs "begin stamens end"
		

I'm forced to use the basic english programming syntax: if/else, while, for, foreach, public, private, protected,.... PLEASE: STOP IMPOSING ENGLISH TO THE WORLD... you are not the only one programming here.

thanks
Antonio

Daniel Keep wrote:
> 
> Hasan Aljudy wrote:
>> ...
>> ummmm .. mathematicians use more complicated symbols and notations than
>> programmers.
> 
> It's funny; but the early programming languages were designed by
> mathematicians.  Trust me, if they'd been able to use ∧ for and, and ∨
> for or, they would have :)  On a few systems, they actually *did*.  I
> think programmers use "simpler" notation simply because we're limited to
> what we can bang out on a keyboard, and mathematicians aren't.
> 
> (In fact, mathematicians seem to *love* inventing new symbols: the guy
> who invented lambda calculus originally wanted to introduce a new
> symbol.  But when it was sent off to be published, the typesetter
> mistook his new symbol for a lambda (λ), and it kinda stuck :P)
> 
> Incidentally, I think the symbols used in mathematics are better if
> they're available since they're pretty unique, and stand out even
> better.  An interesting thing to try is writing up some CWEB code: it
> converts all the &&s and ||s to ∧s and ∨s in the TeX documentation :3
> 
>> ...
>> I actually like symbols in code because they stand out right away.
>> I always prefer {braces} to begin/end.
>> At the same time, I hate too many symbols too close to each other.
> 
> I prefer using names if the names are short and meaningful.  It makes
> code that little less cryptic.  As long as you don't end up with insane
> symbols like #!@$? actually *meaning* something, it all works either way.
> 
> Similarly, one of the reasons I hate Java is because
> everyIdentifierIsACompleteAndGrammaticallyCorrectSentence
> .justBecauseTheyCan(andItMakesWritingLongExpressionsInJava
> .aTotalPainInTheArse)
> 
> Ah well, each to their own, I suppose.
> 
> 	-- Daniel
> 
Ok...
 A good idea could be providing a equivalencies file to the compiler (source + equivalencies), because I prefer to use "y" instead "and". "o" instead "or", "para" instead "for", "mientras" instead "while", "inicio" instead "begin", "final" instead "end" ...


Really:  Why you introduce the "prevalence" of english over other languages like spanish or catalan or french or italian or... when you have a really universal algebra?


Sorry:  I'm not nationalist... but I disagree you when you think only on english people.

Antonio

> I'm forced to use the basic english programming syntax: if/else, while, for, foreach, public, private, protected,.... PLEASE: STOP IMPOSING ENGLISH TO THE WORLD... you are not the only one programming here.
>
> thanks
> Antonio

As for me: Please start imposing english to the world (English isn't my
mother language btw.)
Imposing it only as the second language of course. Diversity of thought is,
most of the time, a good thing :)
I kinda hate language barriers.

Thus I totally agree with:

> the best of algebra symbology is the language independence:

But it shouldn't be that difficult to startof a project on dsource which
would enable the selection of different languages
for these and alike:

> "valor" vs "value", "irSiguiente()" vs "goNext()"...

It could even have a function to translate some of the algebra symbology.

nobody_ wrote:
>> I'm forced to use the basic english programming syntax: if/else, while,
>> for, foreach, public, private, protected,.... PLEASE: STOP IMPOSING ENGLISH TO THE WORLD... you are not the only one programming here.
>>
>> thanks
>> Antonio

"English is the most widely taught and understood language in the world, and sometimes is described as a lingua franca." - Wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_language

Thus for me (aside from being Aussie), English is the best choice, as having other people able to understand your code is the most important consideration when writing code... after all if you code isn't correct, someone else can fix it if they can understand it ;-)

> 
> As for me: Please start imposing english to the world (English isn't my mother language btw.)
> Imposing it only as the second language of course. Diversity of thought is, most of the time, a good thing :)
> I kinda hate language barriers.
> 
> Thus I totally agree with:
> 
>> the best of algebra symbology is the language independence:
> 
> But it shouldn't be that difficult to startof a project on dsource which would enable the selection of different languages
> for these and alike:
> 
>> "valor" vs "value", "irSiguiente()" vs "goNext()"...
> 
> It could even have a function to translate some of the algebra symbology.
> 
> 

It would be interesting to see how popular such a project is - I really have no idea how much non-native English programmers would prefer writing code in their own language if automatic conversion was possible.

:-) Dan

Daniel Giddings wrote:
> nobody_ wrote:
>>> I'm forced to use the basic english programming syntax: if/else, while,
>>> for, foreach, public, private, protected,.... PLEASE: STOP IMPOSING ENGLISH TO THE WORLD... you are not the only one programming here.
>>>
>>> thanks
>>> Antonio
> 
> "English is the most widely taught and understood language in the world, and sometimes is described as a lingua franca." - Wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_language
> 
> Thus for me (aside from being Aussie), English is the best choice, as having other people able to understand your code is the most important consideration when writing code... after all if you code isn't correct, someone else can fix it if they can understand it ;-)
> 
>>
>> As for me: Please start imposing english to the world (English isn't my mother language btw.)
>> Imposing it only as the second language of course. Diversity of thought is, most of the time, a good thing :)
>> I kinda hate language barriers.
>>
>> Thus I totally agree with:
>>
>>> the best of algebra symbology is the language independence:
>>
>> But it shouldn't be that difficult to startof a project on dsource which would enable the selection of different languages
>> for these and alike:
>>
>>> "valor" vs "value", "irSiguiente()" vs "goNext()"...
>>
>> It could even have a function to translate some of the algebra symbology.
>>
>>
> 
> It would be interesting to see how popular such a project is - I really have no idea how much non-native English programmers would prefer writing code in their own language if automatic conversion was possible.
> 
> :-) Dan
I'm not really interested:  spanish coding using english keyword has a lot of advantadges:  "value" or "class" are reserved words... "valor" and "clase" not... :-)  Spanish programmer can use than english people can't (because the english version is reserved by the compiler)

Mi queja se debe al hecho de que la gente piense que para que "sus matemáticos" puedan entender mejor el código, debería usarse una sintaxis "legible" en vez de una sintaxis "críptica"... presuponiendo que la sintaxis "legible" debe ser inglesa.

Si el problema está en que programadores profanos deben usar un lenguaje de programación.  La mejor opción es formarlos convenientemente.
Si por alguna razón esto no es posible, lo mejor sería que el compilador admitiese el uso de "alias" para los símbolos y las palabras reservadas.

antonio escribió:
> Daniel Giddings wrote:
>> nobody_ wrote:
>>>> I'm forced to use the basic english programming syntax: if/else, while,
>>>> for, foreach, public, private, protected,.... PLEASE: STOP IMPOSING ENGLISH TO THE WORLD... you are not the only one programming here.
>>>>
>>>> thanks
>>>> Antonio
>>
>> "English is the most widely taught and understood language in the world, and sometimes is described as a lingua franca." - Wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_language
>>
>> Thus for me (aside from being Aussie), English is the best choice, as having other people able to understand your code is the most important consideration when writing code... after all if you code isn't correct, someone else can fix it if they can understand it ;-)
>>
>>>
>>> As for me: Please start imposing english to the world (English isn't my mother language btw.)
>>> Imposing it only as the second language of course. Diversity of thought is, most of the time, a good thing :)
>>> I kinda hate language barriers.
>>>
>>> Thus I totally agree with:
>>>
>>>> the best of algebra symbology is the language independence:
>>>
>>> But it shouldn't be that difficult to startof a project on dsource which would enable the selection of different languages
>>> for these and alike:
>>>
>>>> "valor" vs "value", "irSiguiente()" vs "goNext()"...
>>>
>>> It could even have a function to translate some of the algebra symbology.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> It would be interesting to see how popular such a project is - I really have no idea how much non-native English programmers would prefer writing code in their own language if automatic conversion was possible.
>>
>> :-) Dan
> I'm not really interested:  spanish coding using english keyword has a lot of advantadges:  "value" or "class" are reserved words... "valor" and "clase" not... :-)  Spanish programmer can use than english people can't (because the english version is reserved by the compiler)
> 

I code in Spanish when it's going to be private code (seen only by my eyes), and in English otherwise.

As for the other proposal, I disagree. I made a similar proposal about 4 years ago, but now I'm not for it.

> Mi queja se debe al hecho de que la gente piense que para que "sus matemáticos" puedan entender mejor el código, debería usarse una sintaxis "legible" en vez de una sintaxis "críptica"... presuponiendo que la sintaxis "legible" debe ser inglesa.
> 
> Si el problema está en que programadores profanos deben usar un lenguaje de programación.  La mejor opción es formarlos convenientemente.
> Si por alguna razón esto no es posible, lo mejor sería que el compilador admitiese el uso de "alias" para los símbolos y las palabras reservadas.

Hay dos razones para el uso de inglés. Primero, los primeros compiladores fueron hechos en los Estados Unidos, así que es normal que hayan usado inglés. A partir de ahí, los nuevos lenguajes evolucionaron a partir de los originales, y obviamente mantuvieron sus palabras reservadas. Además, se volvió natural en todo el mundo entender lo que esas palabras significaban.

Pero la razón más importante es la que dijo Daniel: el inglés es en realidad el idioma universal de nuestra era, así que hay que saber aceptar eso. Un efecto de eso es que, a pesar de lo que dije en el primer punto, Ruby fue hecho por un japonés, pero a pesar de eso usa palabras inglesas. Y así muchos otros. De modo que ahora la cuestión es que no es que sea una sintaxis "legible" sino que es el mínimo común denominador, y además facilita la transición desde otros lenguajes.

Realmente quisiera devolver la conversación al inglés. A mí me molesta cuando empiezan a escribir en alemán o algún otro idioma, así que no quiero causar la misma molestia.

-- 
Carlos Santander Bernal

Carlos Santander wrote:
> antonio escribió:
> 
>> Daniel Giddings wrote:
>>
>>> nobody_ wrote:
>>>
>>>>> I'm forced to use the basic english programming syntax: if/else, while,
>>>>> for, foreach, public, private, protected,.... PLEASE: STOP IMPOSING ENGLISH TO THE WORLD... you are not the only one programming here.
>>>>>
>>>>> thanks
>>>>> Antonio
>>>
>>>
>>> "English is the most widely taught and understood language in the world, and sometimes is described as a lingua franca." - Wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_language
>>>
>>> Thus for me (aside from being Aussie), English is the best choice, as having other people able to understand your code is the most important consideration when writing code... after all if you code isn't correct, someone else can fix it if they can understand it ;-)
>>>
>>>>
>>>> As for me: Please start imposing english to the world (English isn't my mother language btw.)
>>>> Imposing it only as the second language of course. Diversity of thought is, most of the time, a good thing :)
>>>> I kinda hate language barriers.
>>>>
>>>> Thus I totally agree with:
>>>>
>>>>> the best of algebra symbology is the language independence:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> But it shouldn't be that difficult to startof a project on dsource which would enable the selection of different languages
>>>> for these and alike:
>>>>
>>>>> "valor" vs "value", "irSiguiente()" vs "goNext()"...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It could even have a function to translate some of the algebra symbology.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> It would be interesting to see how popular such a project is - I really have no idea how much non-native English programmers would prefer writing code in their own language if automatic conversion was possible.
>>>
>>> :-) Dan
>>
>> I'm not really interested:  spanish coding using english keyword has a lot of advantadges:  "value" or "class" are reserved words... "valor" and "clase" not... :-)  Spanish programmer can use than english people can't (because the english version is reserved by the compiler)
>>
> 
> I code in Spanish when it's going to be private code (seen only by my eyes), and in English otherwise.
> 
> As for the other proposal, I disagree. I made a similar proposal about 4 years ago, but now I'm not for it.
> 
>> Mi queja se debe al hecho de que la gente piense que para que "sus matemáticos" puedan entender mejor el código, debería usarse una sintaxis "legible" en vez de una sintaxis "críptica"... presuponiendo que la sintaxis "legible" debe ser inglesa.
>>
>> Si el problema está en que programadores profanos deben usar un lenguaje de programación.  La mejor opción es formarlos convenientemente.
>> Si por alguna razón esto no es posible, lo mejor sería que el compilador admitiese el uso de "alias" para los símbolos y las palabras reservadas.
> 
> 
> Hay dos razones para el uso de inglés. Primero, los primeros compiladores fueron hechos en los Estados Unidos, así que es normal que hayan usado inglés. A partir de ahí, los nuevos lenguajes evolucionaron a partir de los originales, y obviamente mantuvieron sus palabras reservadas. Además, se volvió natural en todo el mundo entender lo que esas palabras significaban.
> 
> Pero la razón más importante es la que dijo Daniel: el inglés es en realidad el idioma universal de nuestra era, así que hay que saber aceptar eso. Un efecto de eso es que, a pesar de lo que dije en el primer punto, Ruby fue hecho por un japonés, pero a pesar de eso usa palabras inglesas. Y así muchos otros. De modo que ahora la cuestión es que no es que sea una sintaxis "legible" sino que es el mínimo común denominador, y además facilita la transición desde otros lenguajes.

Tienes razón!

lukumäärä rivejä;
kirjoitus jutut;
jutut = lueTiedosto(käyttäjänHaluama);
rivejä = säännöllinenLausekeHaku(jutut, "varakas", "i");
tulosta("Rikkaiden määrä ", rivejä);

Yo no quiero programar en mi idioma (el Finlandes).

> Realmente quisiera devolver la conversación al inglés. A mí me molesta cuando empiezan a escribir en alemán o algún otro idioma, así que no quiero causar la misma molestia.

Georg Wrede escribió:
> Carlos Santander wrote:
>> antonio escribió:
>>
>>> Daniel Giddings wrote:
>>>
>>>> nobody_ wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> I'm forced to use the basic english programming syntax: if/else, while,
>>>>>> for, foreach, public, private, protected,.... PLEASE: STOP IMPOSING ENGLISH TO THE WORLD... you are not the only one programming here.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> thanks
>>>>>> Antonio
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "English is the most widely taught and understood language in the world, and sometimes is described as a lingua franca." - Wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_language
>>>>
>>>> Thus for me (aside from being Aussie), English is the best choice, as having other people able to understand your code is the most important consideration when writing code... after all if you code isn't correct, someone else can fix it if they can understand it ;-)
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> As for me: Please start imposing english to the world (English isn't my mother language btw.)
>>>>> Imposing it only as the second language of course. Diversity of thought is, most of the time, a good thing :)
>>>>> I kinda hate language barriers.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thus I totally agree with:
>>>>>
>>>>>> the best of algebra symbology is the language independence:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> But it shouldn't be that difficult to startof a project on dsource which would enable the selection of different languages
>>>>> for these and alike:
>>>>>
>>>>>> "valor" vs "value", "irSiguiente()" vs "goNext()"...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It could even have a function to translate some of the algebra symbology.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It would be interesting to see how popular such a project is - I really have no idea how much non-native English programmers would prefer writing code in their own language if automatic conversion was possible.
>>>>
>>>> :-) Dan
>>>
>>> I'm not really interested:  spanish coding using english keyword has a lot of advantadges:  "value" or "class" are reserved words... "valor" and "clase" not... :-)  Spanish programmer can use than english people can't (because the english version is reserved by the compiler)
>>>
>>
>> I code in Spanish when it's going to be private code (seen only by my eyes), and in English otherwise.
>>
>> As for the other proposal, I disagree. I made a similar proposal about 4 years ago, but now I'm not for it.
>>
>>> Mi queja se debe al hecho de que la gente piense que para que "sus matemáticos" puedan entender mejor el código, debería usarse una sintaxis "legible" en vez de una sintaxis "críptica"... presuponiendo que la sintaxis "legible" debe ser inglesa.
>>>
>>> Si el problema está en que programadores profanos deben usar un lenguaje de programación.  La mejor opción es formarlos convenientemente.
>>> Si por alguna razón esto no es posible, lo mejor sería que el compilador admitiese el uso de "alias" para los símbolos y las palabras reservadas.
>>
>>
>> Hay dos razones para el uso de inglés. Primero, los primeros compiladores fueron hechos en los Estados Unidos, así que es normal que hayan usado inglés. A partir de ahí, los nuevos lenguajes evolucionaron a partir de los originales, y obviamente mantuvieron sus palabras reservadas. Además, se volvió natural en todo el mundo entender lo que esas palabras significaban.
>>
>> Pero la razón más importante es la que dijo Daniel: el inglés es en realidad el idioma universal de nuestra era, así que hay que saber aceptar eso. Un efecto de eso es que, a pesar de lo que dije en el primer punto, Ruby fue hecho por un japonés, pero a pesar de eso usa palabras inglesas. Y así muchos otros. De modo que ahora la cuestión es que no es que sea una sintaxis "legible" sino que es el mínimo común denominador, y además facilita la transición desde otros lenguajes.
> 
> Tienes razón!
> 
> lukumäärä rivejä;
> kirjoitus jutut;
> jutut = lueTiedosto(käyttäjänHaluama);
> rivejä = säännöllinenLausekeHaku(jutut, "varakas", "i");
> tulosta("Rikkaiden määrä ", rivejä);
> 
> Yo no quiero programar en mi idioma (el Finlandes).
> 
>> Realmente quisiera devolver la conversación al inglés. A mí me molesta cuando empiezan a escribir en alemán o algún otro idioma, así que no quiero causar la misma molestia.

¿Y qué tal el Esperanto? :-P

Birdo birdo = nova Birdo();
birdo.manĝi();
birdo.flugi();
Birdo birdido = birdo.seksumiKun(aliaBirdo);
ktp.

Al menos es más claro que el Finlandess, jejeje. Sólo quiero dar mi opinión: a mi tampoco me gusta que el inglés empiece a estar en todas partes. Lo que se debería hacer es que se pueda escribir en castellano "si" en lugar de "if" y "mientras" en lugar de "while", pero también habría que hacer que a variables, clases y métodos se les pueda dar otro nombre en otro lenguaje, con metainformación. Por ejemplo:

@traducción("en", "getNext")
nada damePróximo() {
}

o algo así. Se podría ver la documentación de una librería en el idioma que quieras (como ahora, pero los nombres de las funciones también estarían traducidas). Obviamente es mucho trabajo, pero creo que valdría la pena.

De todas maneras lo mejor sería que usemos un lenguaje en común que sea fácil de entender para todos, y sobre todo neutral (de ningún país)... y bueno, mi opinión es que el Esperanto sería el candidato perfecto (al igual que para hablar un idioma), pero es sólo mi opinión.

Ĝis,
Ary

Ary Manzana escribió:
> 
> ¿Y qué tal el Esperanto? :-P
> 
> Birdo birdo = nova Birdo();
> birdo.manĝi();
> birdo.flugi();
> Birdo birdido = birdo.seksumiKun(aliaBirdo);
> ktp.
> 
> Al menos es más claro que el Finlandess, jejeje. Sólo quiero dar mi opinión: a mi tampoco me gusta que el inglés empiece a estar en todas partes. Lo que se debería hacer es que se pueda escribir en castellano "si" en lugar de "if" y "mientras" en lugar de "while", pero también habría que hacer que a variables, clases y métodos se les pueda dar otro nombre en otro lenguaje, con metainformación. Por ejemplo:
> 
> @traducción("en", "getNext")
> nada damePróximo() {
> }
> 
> o algo así. Se podría ver la documentación de una librería en el idioma que quieras (como ahora, pero los nombres de las funciones también estarían traducidas). Obviamente es mucho trabajo, pero creo que valdría la pena.
> 
> De todas maneras lo mejor sería que usemos un lenguaje en común que sea fácil de entender para todos, y sobre todo neutral (de ningún país)... y bueno, mi opinión es que el Esperanto sería el candidato perfecto (al igual que para hablar un idioma), pero es sólo mi opinión.
> 
> Ĝis,
> Ary

Eso es peor. Es como decir, un francés y un inglés quieren hacer negocio, así que deciden negociar en árabe, que ninguno de los dos sabe, porque es neutral.

Es un placer leer y escribir en español, ¿pero podemos volver al inglés o llevar esto a otro lado?

-- 
Carlos Santander Bernal