Hi, I don't want to be rude, *really*, but why don't you release Tango? I don't care if it's not done yet, you can also make an alpha release and accept no patches/opinions of improvements.

I'm starting to find very annoying to read "when Tango is released", "Tango has this", etc. Show me the code! =)

I really think you are underestimating the D community if you think you could not get any good criticism/suggestions/patches before Tango it's all done.

I don't really get all the secrecy on Tango, I find it counterproductive, and please believe me, this is not trolling. I really, *really* think you are doing more harm than good to Tango keeping it secret.

-- 
Leandro Lucarella
Integratech S.A.
4571-5252

Leandro Lucarella wrote:

> Hi, I don't want to be rude, *really*, but why don't you release Tango? I don't care if it's not done yet, you can also make an alpha release and accept no patches/opinions of improvements.

The first release will be this alpha relase you talk of. As for not accepting/looking at/considering patches/opinions etc, how could that help? We certainly don't want to ignore anyone having something to contribute, whether it is opinions, fixes or anything larger, but we need to feel confident that we can actually handle incoming information.

Further on, Tango has been equally much about documentation, as about code. Tango has very much code, but it hasn't had proper documentation besides the API-docs. It will be hard to get proper feedback without proper documentation to explain the concepts, especially now with so many new users after the D 1.0 release. We need to get the documentation in a state where it can present users with useful information.

> 
> I'm starting to find very annoying to read "when Tango is released", "Tango has this", etc. Show me the code! =)

Tango is a software product, and as such it is delayed ;) As for "Tango has this", sorry, but as we saw that a relase ready for D 1.0 slipped by, we still wanted to tell the community that we are working on something cool.

> 
> I really think you are underestimating the D community if you think you could not get any good criticism/suggestions/patches before Tango it's all done.

Oh, we're not underestimating the community at all, after all quite a big part of it is already involved. I do think that heavy usage from the full community at the stage we've been at lately (heavy refactoring and sorting of minor issues), would only cause frustrations for both users and us. We are doing this in our spare time, and we want to come to a level, where we can actually handle the feedback.

> 
> I don't really get all the secrecy on Tango, I find it counterproductive, and please believe me, this is not trolling. I really, *really* think you are doing more harm than good to Tango keeping it secret.

We think opposite :)

-- 
Lars Ivar Igesund
blog at http://larsivi.net
DSource & #D: larsivi
Dancing the Tango

On Thu, 11 Jan 2007 12:08:12 -0300, Leandro Lucarella wrote:

> Hi, I don't want to be rude, *really*, but why don't you release Tango? I don't care if it's not done yet, you can also make an alpha release and accept no patches/opinions of improvements.
> 
> I'm starting to find very annoying to read "when Tango is released", "Tango has this", etc. Show me the code! =)
> 
> I really think you are underestimating the D community if you think you could not get any good criticism/suggestions/patches before Tango it's all done.
> 
> I don't really get all the secrecy on Tango, I find it counterproductive, and please believe me, this is not trolling. I really, *really* think you are doing more harm than good to Tango keeping it secret.
>

The argument could be made both ways, of course.

The D community will not be the only ones that judge Tango if it is released before it is ready.  Those on the outside will be much more critical of an incomplete library.

Mostly the documentation has to be completed now, so that people will know how to use it when its released.

The "secrecy" is an attempt at being level-headed and conscientious. The Tango team wants to see Tango at strong beta quality with a sufficient level of core documentation before it's released. I think that's a fair goal.  Otherwise, if it were released early, can you imagine the huge technical support burden on the Tango team as a result of users not understanding how to get the library working?

I think much of that can be avoided with good solid documentation from the beginning, and I think that's what the Tango team is shooting for. Believe me, it's all for the best. :D

-JJR

>> I really think you are underestimating the D community if you think you
>> could not get any good criticism/suggestions/patches before Tango it's
>> all done.
> 
> Oh, we're not underestimating the community at all, after all quite a big
> part of it is already involved. I do think that heavy usage from the full
> community at the stage we've been at lately (heavy refactoring and sorting
> of minor issues), would only cause frustrations for both users and us. We
> are doing this in our spare time, and we want to come to a level, where we
> can actually handle the feedback.

But you are thinking only about users, what about developers? I think developers are smart enough to know that some library is still experimental and take a look at it even just for curiosity.

I don't know, there so many examples of open projects that was developed this way and was successful. I think is all about the development model, the good old The Cathedral and the Bazaar[1]. I think DMD, even having a closed source backend, has many things of the bazaar model ("release early, release often" =).

Anyways is your software, is your decision =)

>> I don't really get all the secrecy on Tango, I find it
>> counterproductive, and please believe me, this is not trolling. I
>> really, *really* think you are doing more harm than good to Tango
>> keeping it secret.
> 
> We think opposite :)

I hope I'm the one who is wrong =)

[1] I think everybody who is developing Tango has already read this, but just in case: http://catb.org/~esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/cathedral-bazaar/

-- 
Leandro Lucarella
Integratech S.A.
4571-5252

Leandro Lucarella wrote:
>>> I really think you are underestimating the D community if you think you
>>> could not get any good criticism/suggestions/patches before Tango it's
>>> all done.
>>
>> Oh, we're not underestimating the community at all, after all quite a big
>> part of it is already involved. I do think that heavy usage from the full
>> community at the stage we've been at lately (heavy refactoring and sorting
>> of minor issues), would only cause frustrations for both users and us. We
>> are doing this in our spare time, and we want to come to a level, where we
>> can actually handle the feedback.
> 
> But you are thinking only about users, what about developers? I think developers are smart enough to know that some library is still experimental and take a look at it even just for curiosity.

The problem is that once Tango is available to the public there's no way to distinguish between "developers" and "users" (which I might describe as "experienced users" and "novice users").  Until we're ready, I really think it's best to limit availability to those testing and documenting the library.


Sean

Sean Kelly wrote:
> The problem is that once Tango is available to the public there's no way to distinguish between "developers" and "users" (which I might describe as "experienced users" and "novice users").  Until we're ready, I really think it's best to limit availability to those testing and documenting the library.
> 
> 
> Sean

Take your time it's allways better to have great documentation from the start. I know it will be great once released even though I can hardly wait.

Zz.

Ok, even if you're not ready to release just yet, can you at least let us know what's in Tango?

Over the past few days, I keep thinking "well, I need a library for X. I could implement it myself, but what if Tango has it, and then I have to go change all my code?".

Even just a quick run-down would be good.

	-- Daniel

P.S.  Keep up the good work; from the names that have been popping up in relation to Tango, I can't wait to see what it looks like :)

Daniel Keep wrote:

> 
> Ok, even if you're not ready to release just yet, can you at least let us know what's in Tango?
> 
> Over the past few days, I keep thinking "well, I need a library for X. I could implement it myself, but what if Tango has it, and then I have to go change all my code?".
> 
> Even just a quick run-down would be good.
> 
> -- Daniel
> 
> P.S.  Keep up the good work; from the names that have been popping up in relation to Tango, I can't wait to see what it looks like :)

From the first announcement:

* Atomic mark/sweep garbage collection by default, with a malloc-based
stub allocator to serve as an example for future development.
* User interception of important language and system-level errors and
events.
* Various levels of concurrency, including process control, kernel
threads, and fibers (stack threads).
* A robust IO framework based on the Mango design.
* An array of mathematics routines ranging from low-level IEEE interop.
to high-level statistics and numerics.
* A networking model that is growing to encompass some of the most
common IO designs and network protocols.
* Standard C, POSIX, and system API support.
* Basic text processing, a container package, logging facilities, and more.

I think you will find few surprises beyond this, but I can mention non-blocking IO (selectors), ftp, http, locale, time and calendar support, some crypto algorithms. The rest is in the details, I think, and what we're still undecided on. There is a bit of useful template functionality in there too.

-- 
Lars Ivar Igesund
blog at http://larsivi.net
DSource & #D: larsivi
Dancing the Tango

Lars Ivar Igesund wrote:
> Daniel Keep wrote:
> 
> 
>>Ok, even if you're not ready to release just yet, can you at least let
>>us know what's in Tango?
>>
>>Over the past few days, I keep thinking "well, I need a library for X.
>>I could implement it myself, but what if Tango has it, and then I have
>>to go change all my code?".
>>
>>Even just a quick run-down would be good.
>>
>>-- Daniel
>>
>>P.S.  Keep up the good work; from the names that have been popping up in
>>relation to Tango, I can't wait to see what it looks like :)
> 
> 
> From the first announcement:

Oops.  Sorry :)

> * Atomic mark/sweep garbage collection by default, with a malloc-based stub allocator to serve as an example for future development.
> * User interception of important language and system-level errors and events.
> * Various levels of concurrency, including process control, kernel threads, and fibers (stack threads).
> * A robust IO framework based on the Mango design.

*kack* *hiss* (don't mind me :P)

> * An array of mathematics routines ranging from low-level IEEE interop. to high-level statistics and numerics.
> * A networking model that is growing to encompass some of the most common IO designs and network protocols.

Now *that* sounds interesting... well, ok; pretty much all of the above sounds interesting, but this more so.

> * Standard C, POSIX, and system API support.
> * Basic text processing, a container package, logging facilities, and more.

Huzzah; I get to throw away my shoddy container implementations :)

> I think you will find few surprises beyond this, but I can mention
> non-blocking IO (selectors), ftp, http, locale, time and calendar support,
> some crypto algorithms. The rest is in the details, I think, and what we're
> still undecided on. There is a bit of useful template functionality in
> there too.

Well, you guys *have* been busy, haven't you? :3  I guess I'll just have to be patient (nuts).

	-- Daniel