On Thu, Apr 25, 2019 at 10:05 PM Walter Bright via Digitalmars-d <digitalmars-d@puremagic.com> wrote:
>
> On 4/25/2019 1:01 PM, Bastiaan Veelo wrote:
> > If you think it was a waste of time, you could just have continued without updating. All releases are still there. http://downloads.dlang.org/releases/
>
> True enough. With other products, I don't upgrade them until there's a good reason to. Saves a lot of effort.
>

May be people upgrade as a way to fix the regression bugs and end up getting new features that introduces new regressions/bugs? There are no releases that target _bug fixes only_.

That brings up another point about LTS, development branch and stable branch.

Bug fixes shall only be done on the stable branch and the new features on the development branch. Stable branch can be merged periodically with development branch and not the other way.

On Thursday, 25 April 2019 at 18:21:18 UTC, Nierjerson wrote:
> There are a few bootlickers in the forums. What you are describing is D's decent in to a cult. Most other popular programming languages have well established cult's. At least it's programming and not politics, religion, or war.

More than a thousand lines of bitterness and resentment in that thread!... But why? Is it a joke? When's the punch-line coming?

Why don't you just drink a beer or a Suze or whatever chills you out and forget a bit about D?

A few years ago, Andrei created a post on this very forum called "OurSister" which was talking about RC-string. I won't explain the pun (that would be awkward), but that joke alone deserves a massive cult and some steady boot-licking.

So please enjoy yourself more and have a good laugh.

On Thursday, 25 April 2019 at 20:01:29 UTC, Bastiaan Veelo wrote:
> On Thursday, 25 April 2019 at 11:27:53 UTC, Chris wrote:
>> As regards maintenance, with D I used to lose a lot of time fixing my code from one compiler version to the next (what a waste of time)
>
> If you think it was a waste of time, you could just have continued without updating. All releases are still there. http://downloads.dlang.org/releases/
>
> Bastiaan.

Now tell me, how am I to profit from bug fixes and other improvements? Well, sure, we could all stick to D1 but what's the point then? The answer is _always_ the same here, "If you want stability stick to an outdated version of dmd", but "if you want feature X fixed, use the latest version of dmd, it's much more stable now!". C'mon, give me a break. Other technologies have caught up with D in many respects and there's no reason to keep on putting up with D's chaos. All you guys will have left to say is "But D had it first" - so what?

On Thursday, 25 April 2019 at 17:12:55 UTC, Andre Pany wrote:
>
> It would be great if you can provide constructive feedback with detailed points we can work on.
> What issues do you have while updating dmd version? What is poorly implemented in your opinion?
>
> If you help us, we can help you.
>
> Kind regards
> Andre

See, this is a common pattern here too. There are so many things wrong with D that one does not know where to start, but when you criticize the language or rather its management, you are asked (under the guise of "constructive criticism") to provide a detailed list of things to be fixed. This ain't but a smoke screen, nobody can do that. Its only purpose is to make the poster look bad and incompetent. Indeed, there are some poor souls who actually take the bait and make PRs or compile a list of bugs / errors etc....and then nothing happens.

I really don't remember all the errors and warnings I got with dmd updates over the years (including third party libraries). However, I have raised points about string handling and autodecode here several times, but to no avail (go and search for it), I ain't gonna repeat that. Just one thing: for several dmd versions I had to use "-allinst", else my code wouldn't compile. Then all of a sudden, my code wouldn't compile with "-allinst" and it was only on a hunch that I removed the flag from dub.json. WTF? What's the story with those weird semi-constructors without semi-destructors? Don't tell me that nobody could foresee that (hello: constructor/deconstructor). What about autodecode? The thing is that D doesn't even get the basics right. It has to be rewritten from scratch, same as a script you hacked together and that turned into something bigger. Take the good bits, but rewrite it in a clean way.

On Friday, 26 April 2019 at 09:42:59 UTC, Chris wrote:
> On Thursday, 25 April 2019 at 20:01:29 UTC, Bastiaan Veelo wrote:
>> On Thursday, 25 April 2019 at 11:27:53 UTC, Chris wrote:
>>> As regards maintenance, with D I used to lose a lot of time fixing my code from one compiler version to the next (what a waste of time)
>>
>> If you think it was a waste of time, you could just have continued without updating. All releases are still there. http://downloads.dlang.org/releases/
>>
>> Bastiaan.
>
> Now tell me, how am I to profit from bug fixes and other improvements?

If there is profit, it isn't a complete waste. My point is: the decision whether the cost of adapting to deprecations is worth the benefit of upgrading is yours. If you think it was a net waste, you made the wrong decision.

We are porting half a million lines of code from a language that we are abandoning. Was it a waste to use that language? Not at all, we made quite a profit. Are we expecting the port to be profitable? Of course we do. Will we be welcoming future deprecations? Yes, because the long term benefits outweigh the short term annoyances. We want to port to a living language, and deprecations are part of life!

Bastiaan.

On Friday, 26 April 2019 at 09:58:00 UTC, Chris wrote:
> Take the good bits, but rewrite it in a clean way.

The sentiment towards that is growing.

Bastiaan.

On Friday, 26 April 2019 at 11:48:20 UTC, Bastiaan Veelo wrote:
>
> If there is profit, it isn't a complete waste. My point is: the decision whether the cost of adapting to deprecations is worth the benefit of upgrading is yours. If you think it was a net waste, you made the wrong decision.

Sooner or later you have to upgrade, the longer you wait the more painful it becomes, I've been there. It's no longer as bad as it used to be, though. My point was: to fight with deprecations, warnings and errors is not something you should have to "invest" in with every new version of dmd.

> We are porting half a million lines of code from a language that we are abandoning. Was it a waste to use that language? Not at all, we made quite a profit. Are we expecting the port to be profitable? Of course we do. Will we be welcoming future deprecations? Yes, because the long term benefits outweigh the short term annoyances. We want to port to a living language, and deprecations are part of life!
>
> Bastiaan.

Same here as I'm porting my D code to a different language...

On Friday, 26 April 2019 at 15:05:48 UTC, Chris wrote:
> On Friday, 26 April 2019 at 11:48:20 UTC, Bastiaan Veelo wrote:
>> [...]
>
> Sooner or later you have to upgrade, the longer you wait the more painful it becomes, I've been there. It's no longer as bad as it used to be, though. My point was: to fight with deprecations, warnings and errors is not something you should have to "invest" in with every new version of dmd.
>
>> [...]
>
> Same here as I'm porting my D code to a different language...

Except that Bastiaan's company is porting their codebase to D IIRC.

On Friday, 26 April 2019 at 08:32:47 UTC, Claude wrote:
> On Thursday, 25 April 2019 at 18:21:18 UTC, Nierjerson wrote:
>> There are a few bootlickers in the forums. What you are describing is D's decent in to a cult. Most other popular programming languages have well established cult's. At least it's programming and not politics, religion, or war.
>
> More than a thousand lines of bitterness and resentment in that thread!... But why? Is it a joke? When's the punch-line coming?
>
Not bitterness, just facts.

> Why don't you just drink a beer or a Suze or whatever chills you out and forget a bit about D?
>
> A few years ago, Andrei created a post on this very forum called "OurSister" which was talking about RC-string. I won't explain the pun (that would be awkward), but that joke alone deserves a massive cult and some steady boot-licking.
>
> So please enjoy yourself more and have a good laugh.

Do you realize the amount of pain and suffering cults have caused on humanity just in the last century? All the wars, all of politics, all the fanatical psychos that root for their favorite sports teams and when they lose go on a rampage, all the religious nuts, ...

You might find pain and suffering of others a joke or fun but I don't. It's completely unnecessary and shows a lack of intelligence and compassion.

While D's cult may not create much pain and suffering(Although clearly it creates some issues) the point was to explain why, to Chris... You failed to understand that point or learn from it.

My point was to tell him a little bit about how the human mind works enough to explain why "communities" end up the way they do. It's something out of his control for the most part and really, ultimately, has nothing to do with the D language and just how things work... Just as gravity works a very precise way, as heat, as energy, as most things, so does human insanity.

Why is it relevant to understand this rather than just blowing it off, chilling, and having a beer? Because most of the people that are in to just blowing stuff off, chilling, and having a beer are the ones who usually allow cults to grow unabashed because it just gets in the way of there having their "fun"... of course, they don't realize they too are in a cult perpetuating the same insanity.

On Friday, 26 April 2019 at 15:26:23 UTC, Seb wrote:
> Except that Bastiaan's company is porting their codebase to D IIRC.

Indeed. There’ll be more about that at DConf: http://dconf.org/2019/talks/veelo.html

Bastiaan.