On Wednesday, 23 September 2015 at 21:29:02 UTC, alienhunter3 wrote:
>
> Still, Mono-D in Windows and Linux has met all of my IDE needs.
>  Are there some common IDE features that Mono-D/Xamarin don't have that are deal-breakers for the .NET folks?

Despite the fact that Mono-D is better than VisualD at syntax highlighting and code completion, it is very slow for large files and it crashes very often on Windows (this is not Mono-D fault, but Xamarins's). The main deal-breaker-feature missing in Mono-D is the debugging support, that's why I stick to VisualD. As the OP said, the error messages (especially when you are using plenty of templated code) are a PIA, regardless the IDE used. Debugging also is a PIA for templated or conditional code. Try to debug a bunch of unittest asserts - you'll never hit the correct line in code. Usually I break the unittests in one-liners just to see exactly where the problem is.

On Wednesday, 23 September 2015 at 18:36:01 UTC, rumbu wrote:
 stopper for me.
>
> The same people not minding the lack of IDE support are usually the Linux guys. Personally, I don't know any Windows developer masochistic enough to use the command line when an IDE is available for the task described above.

I guess I'm a masochist! Seriously, though, most of the time I use Sublime Text and a command prompt where I execute DUB. Painless.

On Thursday, 24 September 2015 at 06:05:05 UTC, Mike Parker wrote:
> On Wednesday, 23 September 2015 at 18:36:01 UTC, rumbu wrote:
>  stopper for me.
>>
>> The same people not minding the lack of IDE support are usually the Linux guys. Personally, I don't know any Windows developer masochistic enough to use the command line when an IDE is available for the task described above.
>
> I guess I'm a masochist! Seriously, though, most of the time I use Sublime Text and a command prompt where I execute DUB. Painless.

Oh, and git through MSYS2.

On Thursday, 24 September 2015 at 05:04:46 UTC, rumbu wrote:
> On Wednesday, 23 September 2015 at 21:29:02 UTC, alienhunter3 wrote:
>> [...]
>
> Despite the fact that Mono-D is better than VisualD at syntax highlighting and code completion, it is very slow for large files and it crashes very often on Windows (this is not Mono-D fault, but Xamarins's). The main deal-breaker-feature missing in Mono-D is the debugging support, that's why I stick to VisualD. As the OP said, the error messages (especially when you are using plenty of templated code) are a PIA, regardless the IDE used. Debugging also is a PIA for templated or conditional code. Try to debug a bunch of unittest asserts - you'll never hit the correct line in code. Usually I break the unittests in one-liners just to see exactly where the problem is.

Actually Mono-D has better debugging experience than VisualD, but ironically it works only on Linux :D
I don't know why you are having troubles with unittests because when a UT fails, the error message includes the line number, so you can put a breakpoint there.

On Thursday, 24 September 2015 at 06:05:05 UTC, Mike Parker wrote:
> On Wednesday, 23 September 2015 at 18:36:01 UTC, rumbu wrote:
>  stopper for me.
>>
>> The same people not minding the lack of IDE support are usually the Linux guys. Personally, I don't know any Windows developer masochistic enough to use the command line when an IDE is available for the task described above.
>
> I guess I'm a masochist! Seriously, though, most of the time I use Sublime Text and a command prompt where I execute DUB. Painless.

Yep. Exactly this.

DKit is in good nick I think - and sublime makes it so very easy to add extra command that if there is anything missing it's an easy DIY job.

I've only had to add 1 though, "dub build --build=release".

I might put it in a pull request soon enough. Is there any other pain points for D on Sublime/DKit do you think?

On Thursday, 24 September 2015 at 06:22:06 UTC, ZombineDev wrote:

> Actually Mono-D has better debugging experience than VisualD, but ironically it works only on Linux :D
> I don't know why you are having troubles with unittests because when a UT fails, the error message includes the line number, so you can put a breakpoint there.

Debugging asserts:

http://imgur.com/LEiGN61

Debugging templated code:

http://imgur.com/NJcdeH8

Mago & Visual Studio debugger, both failed.

On Wednesday, 23 September 2015 at 18:36:01 UTC, rumbu wrote:
> On Tuesday, 22 September 2015 at 11:01:28 UTC, Chris wrote:
>> On Sunday, 20 September 2015 at 17:32:53 UTC, Adam wrote:
>>
>>> It's almost exclusively due to the error messages and IDE. I know many here will write off such complaints, So be it.
>>>
>>
>> The thing is that a lot of people who use D don't mind the lack of IDE support.
>
> IDE is not just a nice interface to write code. It's a way to organize files, AST based file browsing, github integration, and - the most important aspect for me - is the *integrated debugging support*. I'll never use dmd from command line and the lack of IDE support would be definitely a stopper for me.
>
> The same people not minding the lack of IDE support are usually the Linux guys. Personally, I don't know any Windows developer masochistic enough to use the command line when an IDE is available for the task described above.

Whenever I (have to) work on a Windows machine, I use command line + text editor (Textadept). I've written a batch file that I call to compile the code, because there were problems due to dub not being able to create a dll. If I don't create a dll, I use dub. No problem. Why go through all the pain of setting up Visual whatever, if you can sort it out easily yourself?

On Thursday, 24 September 2015 at 06:05:05 UTC, Mike Parker wrote:
>
> I guess I'm a masochist! Seriously, though, most of the time I use Sublime Text and a command prompt where I execute DUB. Painless.

Same here, though I had tried Coedit and found it pleasant (but not perfect).

On Thursday, 24 September 2015 at 06:56:16 UTC, wobbles wrote:
>
> I might put it in a pull request soon enough. Is there any other pain points for D on Sublime/DKit do you think?

I don't actually use DKit, so I can't say anything about it. alt-tab, followed by down arrow-enter, is so reflexive for me now that I'm sure something like DKit would disrupt my flow and take a long time to get used to. Whenever I load up a C or C++ project in Visual Studio, I constantly alt-tab instead of ctrl-b (and that's on top of the D-isms that enter the code out of habit).

On Wednesday, 23 September 2015 at 22:12:47 UTC, Idan Arye wrote:
> On Wednesday, 23 September 2015 at 20:41:38 UTC, rumbu wrote:
>> On Wednesday, 23 September 2015 at 19:52:11 UTC, Paolo Invernizzi wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, 23 September 2015 at 18:36:01 UTC, rumbu wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Personally, I don't know any Windows developer masochistic enough to use the command line when an IDE is available for the task described above.
>>>
>>> Nice to meet you, rumbu!
>>> Now you know one!
>>>
>>> ;-P
>>>
>>> ---
>>> Paolo
>>
>> Nice to meet you too, Paolo. Browsing through your posts, I saw that you are using "mainly Mono-D" :) Don't tell me that you are coloring the keywords in your code using a marker.
>
> "Not using an IDE" does not mean "programming with cat" - most text editors have syntax highlighting...
>
> Anyways, I've also used to be one of these Windows developers masochistic enough to use the command line. I've used it back when I was programming in C#, which means I had to write .csproj files by hand(deep down they resemble Ant, but Visual Studio seems to be writing all sorts of crap in there) and build the projects from the command line using MSBuild, but it was worth it because it means I could build seamlessly from Vim, and I could write deployment scripts that run on the server.
>
> That being said - when I said "used to be" it's not because I'm no longer a "masochist", but because I'm no longer a Windows developer(so yes, I'm no longer a masochist...) - so you can say I was already in the Linux developer mindset and it's no surprise I preferred the command line. Even back then, I was disturbed by the fact that so many programmers feel uncomfortable with the idea of typing textual commands to make computers do things...

I, for one, was very excited when I found out that you could actually run VS builds from the command line rather than having to open up VS. And at my last job, I redid our build stuff so that we used cmake to generate the build stuff for both Linux and Windows so that we didn't have two build systems to maintain, and with that, the _only_ reason that I ever had to open up VS was to debug on Windows. It was great.

Unfortunately, at my current job, we're entirely Windows, so everything's a huge mess in VS rather than using cmake, and most of the devs are totally Windows devs, so they'd probably freak out at the idea that the .vcproj files are generated, and you don't edit any settings inside of VS. So, there's no way that I'm going to get the beauty of cmake again here. I'm forced to open up VS more - and we're using the muck that is TFS, which pretty much requires opening up VS to manage source control (though the TFS power tools help). So, unfortunately, I end up having VS open almost all the time now, even if I almost never use it for editing. Windows _really_ isn't for me, but when it's what's used at your job, you don't have much choice...

I do kind of wonder though what MS would do if the majority of Windows programmers really got a taste of how great the command line is and started complaining to MS en masse about how MS needs to have a proper command line - preferably even port over something like bash or zsh with all of the fantastic tools that come with that. I don't see any reason why they couldn't do that, but they're completely focused on GUIs and doing their own thing.

- Jonathan M Davis