On Tuesday, 31 October 2023 at 16:17:54 UTC, Richard (Rikki) Andrew Cattermole wrote:
> On 31/10/2023 11:50 PM, Atila Neves wrote:
>>> I am reminded about std.uni's table generator. You said one thing on one previous PR, and on mine after I had done the work wouldn't say anything affirmative about it going in. What is absolutely sad about this is after it was in I heard that Symmetry were starting to get uneasy about the tables being so old and were thinking about replacing the entire thing.
>> 
>> I don't know enough about the issue to opine, unfortunately.
>
> See that is concerning. That means you haven't done risk analysis yet. After all, having tables that were later manually modified (which they were) without the table generator is a ticking time bomb. That could stop dmd being released.

It seems to me like this is a symptom of D's leaders being spread too thin. Is it really reasonable to expect Atila to be up-to-speed on every last detail when he has so many different projects to oversee?

Atila shouldn't have to do risk analysis on a project like this. He should be able to delegate that task to someone (like yourself) who has the motivation to take it on and whom he can trust do a good job. And that person should then be responsible for presenting the results in a way that Atila can digest without needing to ramp himself up on all of the relevant background knowledge.

I know we have people in the D community who are capable of filling this role. So, why aren't they? What do we need to do to make that happen?

I think that you may have misunderstood the problem here.

Atila took over a production code base. He appears to not have done any risk analysis to understand how it could fail as a whole nor was there anything to tell him what was a risk.

When alerted to a problem agreed, when it was time to pull a PR, didn't engage in it to ensure a serious risk that could prevent a release of dmd was resolved.

The community (me & Dmitry), staff (Razvan) did our jobs to ensure it was resolved even with it being held up due to leadership "unwillingness" to ensure it was resolved.

There is something to learn from in all of this to ensure that we are not put in this situation again. Which is why I bring it up, to ensure that we don't have a repeat :)

On Tuesday, 31 October 2023 at 18:04:58 UTC, Richard (Rikki) Andrew Cattermole wrote:
> When alerted to a problem agreed, when it was time to pull a PR, didn't engage in it to ensure a serious risk that could prevent a release of dmd was resolved.
>
> The community (me & Dmitry), staff (Razvan) did our jobs to ensure it was resolved even with it being held up due to leadership "unwillingness" to ensure it was resolved.

Thanks for explaining. If leadership is failing to prioritize release-blocking issues over other tasks, even when their urgency is clearly communicated, that is certainly cause for concern.

On 01/11/2023 7:23 AM, Paul Backus wrote:
> Thanks for explaining. If leadership is failing to prioritize release-blocking issues over other tasks, even when their urgency is clearly communicated, that is certainly cause for concern.

In this particular case for std.uni, it was the potential for there to be one at some unknown point in the future. It was just a giant time bomb waiting to go off.

And you know what? If that table generator had been deleted completely, it could have taken us months to reproduce from scratch. Imagine how people would react if we couldn't release dmd for that length of time, due to something so "unimportant" to a lot of people.

On 10/30/2023 11:56 AM, Imperatorn wrote:
> That's good to hear. Since D will be running on at least 50 thousand devices within a year, it's kind of important.
> 
> It will be a very small project, that's why I feel confident. Just some things that are lacking, but no big deal, we can work around them.
> 
> We have compared 20 languages before coming to D, Nim, Go and C++ included. Our analysis showed that even though D is a smaller language, its learning curve is not steep and if you don't do weird stuff, the code is comprehensible and maintainable.
> 
> I have already put 3 packages on dub just to accomodate some missing features. dub works well and supports cross-compilation, which has been very easy to do for us.
> 
> Both from x64 Windows to aarch64 Linux and from x64 Linux to x64 Windows.
> 
> D is easy to learn, yet powerful, while also being efficient.
> 
> For example, take a look at the benchmark I, schveiguy and Sergi took part in:
> https://github.com/jinyus/related_post_gen
> 
> We hope that D will continue to flourish and that we will be able to use it in the future

Thanks for the kind words and contributions! I appreciate them.

I especially enjoy you writing that D code is comprehensible and maintainable, as that has been a major goal of the language from the beginning. In many cases, D has deliberately dialed down the power of some constructs that inevitably lead to incomprehensible code in other languages. I know these decisions are sometimes controversial.

Of course, it is still possible to write incomprehensible tangles of code, but if we can make it both pointless and harder, that's a win.

On Wednesday, 1 November 2023 at 01:00:53 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
> On 10/30/2023 11:56 AM, Imperatorn wrote:
>> [snip]
>
> Thanks for the kind words and contributions! I appreciate them.
>
> [snip]

Wow. That's tough.

I very much respect your technical accomplishments and your many years of dedication.
However, I am deeply shocked to see insubstantial and disrespectful behavior rewarded with attention and goodwill from leadership.
At the same time, the morale of long-time and extremely capable contributors like Adam is being undermined by misrepresenting his proposals and imposing ever new hurdles.

It is a shame to destroy the potential of the language and the ecosystem so carelessly.

Olaf

On Wednesday, 1 November 2023 at 09:00:38 UTC, Olaf wrote:
> On Wednesday, 1 November 2023 at 01:00:53 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
>> On 10/30/2023 11:56 AM, Imperatorn wrote:
>>> [snip]
>>
>> Thanks for the kind words and contributions! I appreciate them.
>>
>> [snip]
>
> Wow. That's tough.
>
> I very much respect your technical accomplishments and your many years of dedication.
> However, I am deeply shocked to see insubstantial and disrespectful behavior rewarded with attention and goodwill from leadership.
> At the same time, the morale of long-time and extremely capable contributors like Adam is being undermined by misrepresenting his proposals and imposing ever new hurdles.
>
> It is a shame to destroy the potential of the language and the ecosystem so carelessly.
>
> Olaf

Did you reply to the wrong post or in the wrong thread?

On Wednesday, 1 November 2023 at 11:23:11 UTC, Imperatorn wrote:
> On Wednesday, 1 November 2023 at 09:00:38 UTC, Olaf wrote:
>> On Wednesday, 1 November 2023 at 01:00:53 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
>>> [...]
>>
>> Wow. That's tough.
>>
>> I very much respect your technical accomplishments and your many years of dedication.
>> However, I am deeply shocked to see insubstantial and disrespectful behavior rewarded with attention and goodwill from leadership.
>> At the same time, the morale of long-time and extremely capable contributors like Adam is being undermined by misrepresenting his proposals and imposing ever new hurdles.
>>
>> It is a shame to destroy the potential of the language and the ecosystem so carelessly.
>>
>> Olaf
>
> Did you reply to the wrong post or in the wrong thread?

What I mean is, why wouldn't Walter appreciate Adams work? I am of the impression he does.