On Sunday, 27 August 2017 at 11:36:57 UTC, Moritz Maxeiner wrote:
> On Sunday, 27 August 2017 at 11:26:58 UTC, Ecstatic Coder wrote:
>>[...]
>>
>> Just add the 4 examples I suggested, and you have a brand-new beginner-friendly website without changing anything else to the website canvas.
>
> If you want a change in D's web presence submit a PR to [1] or one of [2] as appropriate.
>
> [1] https://github.com/dlang/dlang.org
> [2] https://github.com/dlang-tour

No problem, but first I'd like to have the design changes validated prior to making them.

That's how web developers do with their customers.

1. suggest the changes
2. have the changes accepted
3. make the changes

Because there is no interest in making changes that won't be accepted eventually...

On Sunday, 27 August 2017 at 00:05:00 UTC, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:
> On Saturday, 26 August 2017 at 23:53:27 UTC, Ryion wrote:
>> I have the same issue with the Library. The flow of information is bad, too much walls of text, with too much assumption that
>
> Have you tried my alternative? It is the same content (well it lags a version or two cuz i haven't updated my computer yet) but laid out differently.
>
> http://dpldocs.info/
>
> http://dpldocs.info/experimental-docs/std.stdio.html
> for example

It looks a lot better Adam, especially compared to the D website design. I am even willing to bet that it has much better results with Search Engines, because it has separate pages.

In my opinion its much more inline with my expectation for a programming language documentation. Nice job Adam! Going to bookmark it and use that as my reference.

On Sunday, 27 August 2017 at 11:50:18 UTC, Ecstatic Coder wrote:
> On Sunday, 27 August 2017 at 11:36:57 UTC, Moritz Maxeiner wrote:
>> On Sunday, 27 August 2017 at 11:26:58 UTC, Ecstatic Coder wrote:
>>>[...]
>>>
>>> Just add the 4 examples I suggested, and you have a brand-new beginner-friendly website without changing anything else to the website canvas.
>>
>> If you want a change in D's web presence submit a PR to [1] or one of [2] as appropriate.
>>
>> [1] https://github.com/dlang/dlang.org
>> [2] https://github.com/dlang-tour
>
> No problem, but first I'd like to have the design changes validated prior to making them.
>
> That's how web developers do with their customers.
>
> 1. suggest the changes
> 2. have the changes accepted
> 3. make the changes

Unless I've missed you being contracted to do these changes, this model doesn't apply. It's not other people who want you to do some work (and as they are paying you have a vested interest in evaluating it), it's you who wants changes.

>
> Because there is no interest in making changes that won't be accepted eventually...

To be frank, this is how things usually get done in open source (outside of corporate interests):
One commits to doing something, does it, then asks for people to review the result, and finally tries to get it accepted.
One does this often enough successfully in a particular group of people and one earns recognition by their group peers (reputation).
Starting and/or participating in discussions can be valuable to the community and may yield reputation, as well, but one can't realistically expect receiving preapproval for ideas unless one has proven to actually follow through on them and contribute tangible results.

[1] And you do this often enough successfully in a particular project you earn recognition there

I agree, but here it's not a local modification I've done to a D library that I want to push so that other people can use it too.

It's a change to the main landing page of the dlang.org website, which is by definition global and can ONLY be validated by those in charge of it.

If those people in charge like the idea, then it's fine by me to translate the idea into physical changes through a PR.

But if not, it's a complete loss of time, and sorry to say it, but from what I've seen, there are VERY LITTLE chances these changes gets validated.

I've already received enough "No, not interested" answers till now to the same proposal to think that this will be ok this time.

And yes, call it masochism, I continue proposing the change over and over, because I'm totally convinced that those changes to the dlang.org landing page are REALLY needed.

That's what the other languages do, it works well for them, and NO, I don't see the advantages in doing the opposite of what works well for the others.

It's not plagiarism, it's just common sense...

On Sunday, 27 August 2017 at 13:12:22 UTC, Ecstatic Coder wrote:
> I agree, but here it's not a local modification I've done to a D library that I want to push so that other people can use it too.
>
> It's a change to the main landing page of the dlang.org website, which is by definition global and can ONLY be validated by those in charge of it.

Which - as I've pointed out - is much likelier to occur if you open a PR.

>
> If those people in charge like the idea, then it's fine by me to translate the idea into physical changes through a PR.

That's your prerogative, but preapproval is extremely unlikely to occur.

>
> But if not, it's a complete loss of time, and sorry to say it, but from what I've seen, there are VERY LITTLE chances these changes gets validated.
>
> I've already received enough "No, not interested" answers till now to the same proposal to think that this will be ok this time.

Add my voice to that corpus - I honestly don't care what the website looks like.

>
> And yes, call it masochism, I continue proposing the change over and over, because I'm totally convinced that those changes to the dlang.org landing page are REALLY needed.

I haven't called it anything, yet, but if I were to call it something, it would be insanity, because I see no causal link between proposing the same thing repeatedly and other peoples' interests.
I'm reasonably confident it would've taken you less time to do that PR than writing your posts on this topic and reading peoples' replies already took from you; the difference between the two being that you're no closer to getting your changes through right now (or even receiving a definite answer), whereas if you had opened the PR you could've already moved on to the next thing of interest to you, instead of remaining in the current loop of "post idea" -> "wait -> "don't get preapproval" -> "wait" -> ...
If you open a PR, it's likely to eventually receive a review that will either result in rejection, merging, or a discussion. In either case, you're free to pursue other things in the meantime and as long as the PR remains open, the changes aren't lost.

>
> That's what the other languages do, it works well for them, and NO, I don't see the advantages in doing the opposite of what works well for the others.

And if you want to see change, it'll take you to champion it via a PR (and defending it in the resulting discussion).

>
> It's not plagiarism, it's just common sense...

No idea why you think I would care, since programming languages have always been about copying good stuff from others.

>> I've already received enough "No, not interested" answers till now to the same proposal to think that this will be ok this time.
>
> Add my voice to that corpus - I honestly don't care what the website looks like.

Ok, message received. At least I've got my answer for the PR. Thanks for your honesty. Sincerely.

Now, to be 100% honest with you, I'm still convinced it DOES matter, because many people who have heard about D, whether it's in a conference, on a blog or article or by a colleague, will eventually land on the main page of this website.

Then they will have to decide if they install the compiler and learn D, or not.

And I'm pretty sure many won't, for the reasons explained.

Now you know EXACTLY, to the smallest detail, what I would personally do to fix that...

>> And yes, call it masochism, I continue proposing the change over and over, because I'm totally convinced that those changes to the dlang.org landing page are REALLY needed.
>
> I haven't called it anything, yet, but if I were to call it something, it would be insanity, because I see no causal link between proposing the same thing repeatedly and other peoples' interests.

LOL. Ok so let's be insane once again... ;)

My proposal is to :

1. Say "Welcome"

2. Show how D is nice, ending with a link to the feature page

3. Show how simple D code looks like, using 4 well chosen examples, with the first on the right of the main page.

4. Show how easy it is to learn D.

5. Show how easy it is to install DMD and a simple editor like CoEdit on any win/mac/linux computer.

In practice, the landing page should be something like that :

"Welcome to D

What is D?

D is the culmination of decades of experience implementing compilers for many diverse languages and has a unique set of features:

    high level constructs for great modeling power
    high performance, compiled language
    static typing
    direct interface to the operating system API's and hardware
    blazingly fast compile-times
    memory-safe subset (SafeD)
    maintainable, easy to understand code
    gradual learning curve (C-like syntax, similar to Java and others)
    compatible with C application binary interface
    limited compatibility with C++ application binary interface
    multi-paradigm (imperative, structured, object oriented, generic, functional programming purity, and even assembly)
    built-in error detection (contracts, unittests)

... and many more {features}.

Take a tour

Want to try D online ? Simply click on the "run" button (or Ctrl-enter) below the example on the right to compile and run it. And the example can be freely edited if you want to experiment with D programming.

If you want to see other examples, click on the "next" button below to see the next example of the dlang-tour.

Further readings

* New to programming? Learn programming quickly and easily with the D language, using these freely downloadable books :

  * {http://ddili.org/ders/d.en/index.html}
  * {https://www.tutorialspoint.com/d_programming/}

* Already an experienced programmer? ...

  * etc etc ...

Installing D

...

* {https://dlang.org/download.html}

* {https://github.com/BBasile/Coedit}"

Four D examples for the Dlang-Tour :

  * How to declare, use and print variables (bool, int, float, string, int[], int[string]).
  * How to declare imperative functions
  * How to declare classes with attributes and methods
  * How to call functions and methods with the dot notation, with or without parentheses

Still not convinced ?

No problem, I don't even know why I care in making D grows its community to have more money, and thus more manpower to get improved, while the current version is already perfect to my personal scripting needs.

Anyway, feel free to copy-paste the changes I've suggested, they are 100% free to use...

On Sunday, 27 August 2017 at 18:07:27 UTC, Ecstatic Coder wrote:
>>> I've already received enough "No, not interested" answers till now to the same proposal to think that this will be ok this time.
>>
>> Add my voice to that corpus - I honestly don't care what the website looks like.
>
> Ok, message received.

Considering what follows, I'm not sure about that, but OK.

> At least I've got my answer for the PR.

Not sure what you mean here, unless you've opened a PR and I missed it?
My personal interests have nothing to do with whether a PR would get accepted or not by the people in charge of the website, so I can't see how you got "your answer for the PR".

> Thanks for your honesty. Sincerely.
>
> Now, to be 100% honest with you, I'm still convinced it DOES matter, because many people who have heard about D, whether it's in a conference, on a blog or article or by a colleague, will eventually land on the main page of this website.
>
> Then they will have to decide if they install the compiler and learn D, or not.
>
> And I'm pretty sure many won't, for the reasons explained.

That a possibility, but I don't care about whether or not they do.
I care about the quality of D itself as a PL, which in my (heavily) biased opinion won't be impacted by people who base their tool choices on website design.

>
> Now you know EXACTLY, to the smallest detail, what I would personally do to fix that...

So what's stopping you other than pre approval?

>
>>> And yes, call it masochism, I continue proposing the change over and over, because I'm totally convinced that those changes to the dlang.org landing page are REALLY needed.
>>
>> I haven't called it anything, yet, but if I were to call it something, it would be insanity, because I see no causal link between proposing the same thing repeatedly and other peoples' interests.
>
> LOL. Ok so let's be insane once again... ;)
>
> My proposal is to :
>
> [...]

As I said, you aren't going to change my interests (and I'm reasonable convinced you won't change other peoples', either). The only reason I replied initially was so that whatever the prevalent idea was had a chance not to die off in the forum like most others who don't have a champion; the particulars of the topic itself weren't relevant to me.
What you do with that is up to you.

>
> Still not convinced ?

Convinced of what, exactly?

> [...]
>
> Anyway, feel free to copy-paste the changes I've suggested, they are 100% free to use...

Thanks, but as I pointed out, the website's design is of no interest to me personally.

On 08/27/2017 08:07 PM, Ecstatic Coder wrote:
>>> I've already received enough "No, not interested" answers till now to the same proposal to think that this will be ok this time.
>>
>> Add my voice to that corpus - I honestly don't care what the website looks like.
> 
> Ok, message received. At least I've got my answer for the PR. Thanks for your honesty. Sincerely.

I'm not sure what you're saying here. Are you not going to make a pull request because Moritz isn't interested? If so, you should know that he is not the one who decides about this stuff (not that he claimed to be). Neither am I. We're just engaging in discussion.

On Sunday, 27 August 2017 at 18:51:00 UTC, Moritz Maxeiner wrote:
> Thanks, but as I pointed out, the website's design is of no interest to me personally.

> As I said, you aren't going to change my interests (and I'm reasonable convinced you won't change other peoples', either).

> Add my voice to that corpus - I honestly don't care what the website looks like.

This whole topic is about improving the website. The fact that you are already a well versed D programmer that sees no usefulness in actually improving the readability of the site is irrelevant.

The constant repeating that it does not interest you, simply discourages people. Same with pointing out that ( you think ) he can not change other people his minds. I personally think he is right and the site is not information friendly. Lots of content does not mean its useful if that content is badly presented.

If somebody is spending a lot of time simply writing issues that they think can be improved, let them try. Even if it dies later in the topic.

If this topic did not exist, i will not have found out that Adam has a experimental library, that hands over heels wins compared to the current massive text blob. Even if its a few versions behind, its way more clean and easy to use the what is now on the website.

http://dpldocs.info/experimental-docs/std.html

So at minimum one positive thing came from the topic.

On Sunday, 27 August 2017 at 19:11:19 UTC, ag0aep6g wrote:
> On 08/27/2017 08:07 PM, Ecstatic Coder wrote:
>>>> I've already received enough "No, not interested" answers till now to the same proposal to think that this will be ok this time.
>>>
>>> Add my voice to that corpus - I honestly don't care what the website looks like.
>> 
>> Ok, message received. At least I've got my answer for the PR. Thanks for your honesty. Sincerely.
>
> I'm not sure what you're saying here. Are you not going to make a pull request because Moritz isn't interested? If so, you should know that he is not the one who decides about this stuff (not that he claimed to be). Neither am I. We're just engaging in discussion.

Following what you said, I've just looked at both Github accounts, and I can clearly see that it's much above my skill set to merge the content of both D-based websites so that the main page of the Dlang website looks exactly like what I want.

I still do not understand why they have made so many separated Github account for just one website. Just using sub folders on the same Github account would have been a much simpler solution, so that it's easy to make changes to the website on a more global scale...