On Tue, 27 Jan 2015 01:32:21 +0000, Mike wrote:

> In fact, it is the attitude against change that has put me on the fence about D, when I was quite an advocate about a year ago.  It has also made me reluctant to put forth the necessary effort to study and make any significant contributions because the controversy, as exhibited here, would likely erase my entire investment.  Instead, I have begun exploring other options while keeping one foot on the raft.
heh. i was very passionate about D, and i started the process of migration of all our work projects (i'm a head of software company with ~100 employees, if anybody is interested) to D. but then i realised that D -- being a best programming language i've seen in my life -- is a toy project. just think about it as a personal toy. and then you'll know what expect from it.

On Tuesday, 27 January 2015 at 07:50:36 UTC, ketmar wrote:
> On Tue, 27 Jan 2015 02:11:55 +0000, Jonathan Marler wrote:
>
>> This has become quite frustrating.  I'm not sure how else to explain
>> myself so maybe I'm just being dumb.
> you are dumb. you can be dumb for some time, and then BANG! your proposal
> is silently made "right". yet you're still dumb. that is The Way Of D.

"that is the way of D"...sad... I may have to agree with you on some of your points.  Even after explaining my idea 3 or 4 times, it seemed to fall on deaf ears, or more specifically, uninterested ears that didn't try to understand.  It's very frustrating when you take the time to write up an idea and no one bothers read it well enough to understand it, let alone take a few minutes to think about it.  D is by far the best language I've worked with, but there's still work to be done.  It has been quite disheartening when I try to discuss anything in the forums.  People are very quick to respond to posts without fully reading them and the meat of the content gets lost in a slew of responses that miss the point.  I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong or how this can be improved.  But this pattern seems to keep happening no matter what topic is discussed.  Not sure how to solve this...I'll think on this tomorrow.

On Tuesday, 27 January 2015 at 08:07:11 UTC, ketmar wrote:
> heh. i was very passionate about D, and i started the process of
> migration of all our work projects (i'm a head of software company with
> ~100 employees, if anybody is interested) to D. but then i realised that
> D -- being a best programming language i've seen in my life -- is a toy
> project. just think about it as a personal toy. and then you'll know what
> expect from it.

A head of a 1000 employee software company would certainly have the power to change that rather than spending his time complaining on a NG.

On Tuesday, 27 January 2015 at 08:07:11 UTC, ketmar wrote:
> On Tue, 27 Jan 2015 01:32:21 +0000, Mike wrote:
>
>  i started the process of migration of all our work projects (i'm a head of software company with ~100 employees, if anybody is interested) to D. but then i realised that D -- being a best programming language i've seen in my life -- is a toy project. just think about it as a personal toy. and then you'll know what expect from it.

I'm interested! I'm interested! ;-P

Our jobs are similar: we have to scout out new technologies for our companies, and, with an hand on the hearth and fingers crossed, we have to judge the risks/benefits about spending money and time on them.

It's not an easy job in my opinion, expecially nowadays with all that trees in the forest...

I strongly believe in D, and we have migrated all our major projects over it, but sometimes, when I'm alone with my thoughts,  I not sure if the "force is strong in me"  like at the beginning...

Well, we'll see: alea iacta est.

---
Paolo

On Tuesday, 27 January 2015 at 08:44:19 UTC, deadalnix wrote:
> On Tuesday, 27 January 2015 at 08:07:11 UTC, ketmar wrote:
>> heh. i was very passionate about D, and i started the process of
>> migration of all our work projects (i'm a head of software company with
>> ~100 employees, if anybody is interested) to D. but then i realised that
>> D -- being a best programming language i've seen in my life -- is a toy
>> project. just think about it as a personal toy. and then you'll know what
>> expect from it.
>
> A head of a 1000 employee software company would certainly have the power to change that rather than spending his time complaining on a NG.

If I have interpreted this post in the correct way, this is a very unfair comment, deadline.

---
Paolo

On Tue, 27 Jan 2015 08:30:43 +0000, Jonathan Marler wrote:

> On Tuesday, 27 January 2015 at 07:50:36 UTC, ketmar wrote:
>> On Tue, 27 Jan 2015 02:11:55 +0000, Jonathan Marler wrote:
>>
>>> This has become quite frustrating.  I'm not sure how else to explain myself so maybe I'm just being dumb.
>> you are dumb. you can be dumb for some time, and then BANG! your proposal is silently made "right". yet you're still dumb. that is The Way Of D.
> 
> "that is the way of D"...sad... I may have to agree with you on some of
> your points.  Even after explaining my idea 3 or 4 times,
> it seemed to fall on deaf ears, or more specifically, uninterested ears
> that didn't try to understand.  It's very frustrating when you take the
> time to write up an idea and no one bothers read it well enough to
> understand it, let alone take a few minutes to think about it.  D is by
> far the best language I've worked with, but there's still work to be
> done.  It has been quite disheartening when I try to discuss anything in
> the forums.
>   People are very quick to respond to posts without fully reading
> them and the meat of the content gets lost in a slew of responses that
> miss the point.  I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong or how this can be
> improved.  But this pattern seems to keep happening no matter what topic
> is discussed.  Not sure how to solve this...I'll think on this tomorrow.

you just have to write alot of unpleasant things, and then you'll be twitted by the most of the readers. and then you'll get no feedback on your posts at all, but that means that you'll not get a negative feedback too.

for me it's amusing to see how my rants becoming "the things". and i know that i can write anything i want to, 'cause almost nobody is reading my posts anyway.

but for this particular issue... i'm enraged by the fact that it was commited without discussion at all. my ER got some controversal reactions, and i was believe that anything controversal is discussed first, and only then it may be accepted. but it looks like Walter is don't care about D users, the only thing he cares of is "will this be usable for me?"

yes, i know that this is a "personal attack". and i know that it's a project of Walter after all, so he can do anything he want to. but D is the best language i've seen and used, that's why i'm so passionate about it (and rude alot of times, i know). my only excuse is that (as i told) that almost nobody is reading my posts. ;-)

On Tue, 27 Jan 2015 08:44:17 +0000, deadalnix wrote:

> On Tuesday, 27 January 2015 at 08:07:11 UTC, ketmar wrote:
>> heh. i was very passionate about D, and i started the process of migration of all our work projects (i'm a head of software company with ~100 employees, if anybody is interested) to D. but then i realised that D -- being a best programming language i've seen in my life -- is a toy project. just think about it as a personal toy. and then you'll know what expect from it.
> 
> A head of a 1000 employee software company would certainly have the power to change that rather than spending his time complaining on a NG.

i don't know where you found that "1000" number, i was talking about "100". it's a very different thing.

and then: do you proposing a fork? sure, i can do that. actually, i'm using a very different D already (heh, people that are interested in my public code -- noone, actually -- may notice that all my modules are "aliced" now; that's 'cause i want them to fail early instead of being asked why they errored in the middle). but will it be good for D? i'm not making my fork public for a reason. and i'm writing here for a reason too. did you notice that almost all of my topics (not that many, actually) got a lenghty discussion? isn't that a sign that i'm talking about important things?

On Tuesday, 27 January 2015 at 08:30:46 UTC, Jonathan Marler wrote:
>  People are very quick to respond to posts without fully reading them and the meat of the content gets lost in a slew of responses that miss the point.  I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong or how this can be improved.  But this pattern seems to keep happening no matter what topic is discussed.  Not sure how to solve this...I'll think on this tomorrow.

Isn't it more that one or two individuals don't get your point and keep arguing while the others got it?

Anyway, the discussions on the rust dev list appears to be more educated than on the D forums, so maybe the people with a theoretical background gave up on D and was piqued by the potential given by linear typing? I think so... but they might get fed up with it eventually and in the mean time D has the opportunity to get the semantics right...

From a political perspective it is better to leave the syntax as it is until the semantics of the language are frozen. If you keep changing the syntax then people will eventually be fed up with changes and it might be more difficult to push through a full redesign... Which in my opinion is needed.

It is better to stay 25% flawed then eventually clean it up so that it is only 5% flawed, than to go from 25% bad to 20% bad to 15% and then people get fed up with changes and it is frozen at 15% flawed.

The problem in the D community is that there is no planning. Syntax clean up should be a workgroup effort, not a metamorphic mutation process.

On Tue, 27 Jan 2015 08:47:43 +0000, Paolo Invernizzi wrote:

> On Tuesday, 27 January 2015 at 08:07:11 UTC, ketmar wrote:
>> On Tue, 27 Jan 2015 01:32:21 +0000, Mike wrote:
>>
>>  i started the process of migration of all our work projects
>> (i'm a head of software company with ~100 employees, if anybody is
>> interested) to D. but then i realised that D -- being a best
>> programming language i've seen in my life -- is a toy project. just
>> think about it as a personal toy. and then you'll know what expect from
>> it.
> 
> I'm interested! I'm interested! ;-P
> 
> Our jobs are similar: we have to scout out new technologies for our companies, and, with an hand on the hearth and fingers crossed, we have to judge the risks/benefits about spending money and time on them.
> 
> It's not an easy job in my opinion, expecially nowadays with all that trees in the forest...
> 
> I strongly believe in D, and we have migrated all our major projects
> over it, but sometimes, when I'm alone with my thoughts,
>   I not sure if the "force is strong in me"  like at the
> beginning...
> 
> Well, we'll see: alea iacta est.

i believe in D too, and i want it to succeed -- not only for me. that's why i'm writing here. i'm not attacking it for the sake of attack, and i deliberately took the position of outcast.

On 2015-01-26 23:04, Walter Bright wrote:

> What I wanted by doing this is to produce some sort of consensus. The
> topic has already been discussed to death.

You have complained that one of your old D1 projects didn't compile with the latest D2 compiler. How would you expect that to still compile when making changes like this and without those things Dicebot mentioned.

-- 
/Jacob Carlborg