On Thursday, 26 March 2015 at 10:17:42 UTC, Kagamin wrote:
> On Wednesday, 25 March 2015 at 22:30:15 UTC, Ola Fosheim Grøstad wrote:
>> Downplaying other languages makes the D crowd look desperate...
>
> Heh, there were whole sites like phpain (can't find it now) and something similar for C++.

The feature set of C++ does cause maintenance issues in real world codebases if you let programmers roam about freely and "redefine" the syntax/semantics. More so than C with it's limited feature set. Are you sure that D does not have similar issues? I have no idea how Go fares, but orthogonal simplicity could be an advantage in real world code bases where you read code other people have written/mutated.

What I find interesting is that Python also has a feature set for redefining semantics that should cause C++ like issues. Still, I find most Python libraries I use to be fairly clean and intuitive. Maybe the fact that Python is untyped and non-performance-oriented makes programmers constrain themselves more from producing spaghetti libraries...?

On Thursday, 26 March 2015 at 11:29:20 UTC, Ola Fosheim Grøstad wrote:
> On Thursday, 26 March 2015 at 10:17:42 UTC, Kagamin wrote:
>> On Wednesday, 25 March 2015 at 22:30:15 UTC, Ola Fosheim Grøstad wrote:
>>> Downplaying other languages makes the D crowd look desperate...
>>
>> Heh, there were whole sites like phpain (can't find it now) and something similar for C++.
>
> The feature set of C++ does cause maintenance issues in real world codebases if you let programmers roam about freely and "redefine" the syntax/semantics. More so than C with it's limited feature set. Are you sure that D does not have similar issues? I have no idea how Go fares, but orthogonal simplicity could be an advantage in real world code bases where you read code other people have written/mutated.
>
> What I find interesting is that Python also has a feature set for redefining semantics that should cause C++ like issues. Still, I find most Python libraries I use to be fairly clean and intuitive. Maybe the fact that Python is untyped and non-performance-oriented makes programmers constrain themselves more from producing spaghetti libraries...?

Further down the road, people will ask for more features in Go, and there will be patches and more patches, until we'll have Go++. This, or they won't get the features and move on to other language. Of course, Google is trying to prevent this by binding as many users as possible right now, so it will be hard to leave. The oldest trick in the IT hat.

... or Google abandons Go! Ha ha ha.

On Thursday, 26 March 2015 at 12:27:14 UTC, Chris wrote:
> Further down the road, people will ask for more features in Go, and there will be patches and more patches, until we'll have Go++.

Quite possible. Being open source it is quite likely that some outsiders create a go++. I can see that coming when/if they get their runtime up to snuff, it could be a promising starting point for new concurrent GC-based languages.

Maybe even a starting point for a D3 language?

> This, or they won't get the features and move on to other language. Of course, Google is trying to prevent this by binding as many users as possible right now, so it will be hard to leave. The oldest trick in the IT hat.
>
> ... or Google abandons Go! Ha ha ha.

Yeah, I doubt Google care about people leaving Go, or that they have invested all that much in Go. We'll have to keep in mind that they hire 1000s of programmers, spending a few on some experimental programming projects like Go and Dart is probably just reasonable R&D. They also spend R&D on Angular, Polymer, AtScript, the Closure-compiler, and a slew of other projects. As far as I am concerned Google don't back Go until it is fully supported on App Engine.

On Thursday, 26 March 2015 at 12:37:31 UTC, Ola Fosheim Grøstad wrote:
> On Thursday, 26 March 2015 at 12:27:14 UTC, Chris wrote:
>> Further down the road, people will ask for more features in Go, and there will be patches and more patches, until we'll have Go++.
>
> Quite possible. Being open source it is quite likely that some outsiders create a go++. I can see that coming when/if they get their runtime up to snuff, it could be a promising starting point for new concurrent GC-based languages.
>
> Maybe even a starting point for a D3 language?
>
>> This, or they won't get the features and move on to other language. Of course, Google is trying to prevent this by binding as many users as possible right now, so it will be hard to leave. The oldest trick in the IT hat.
>>
>> ... or Google abandons Go! Ha ha ha.
>
> Yeah, I doubt Google care about people leaving Go, or that they have invested all that much in Go. We'll have to keep in mind that they hire 1000s of programmers, spending a few on some experimental programming projects like Go and Dart is probably just reasonable R&D. They also spend R&D on Angular, Polymer, AtScript, the Closure-compiler, and a slew of other projects. As far as I am concerned Google don't back Go until it is fully supported on App Engine.

The Go language aside, I don't trust Google projects. Too many corpses. I have more confidence in community driven things.

On Thursday, 26 March 2015 at 13:51:32 UTC, Chris wrote:
> The Go language aside, I don't trust Google projects. Too many corpses. I have more confidence in community driven things.

If you can make do with a conglomerate of small things, yes. Python is well suited for that, many small independent bits.

I'm ok with Google projects as long as there is a fallback. And there is a fallback for most of the tech they push. (e.g. you can host your own App Engine compatible setup, compile your own Go compiler, etc)

On Thursday, 26 March 2015 at 10:17:42 UTC, Kagamin wrote:
> On Wednesday, 25 March 2015 at 22:30:15 UTC, Ola Fosheim Grøstad wrote:
>> Downplaying other languages makes the D crowd look desperate...
>
> Heh, there were whole sites like phpain (can't find it now) and something similar for C++.

Actually http://www.phpsadness.com/

On Wednesday, 25 March 2015 at 23:00:32 UTC, bearophile wrote:
> Ola Fosheim Grøstad:
>
>> Downplaying other languages makes the D crowd look desperate...
>
> That kind of articles are bad for the image of the D community (and the D code shown in that article is not the best).
>
> Bye,
> bearophile

I don't think it's that bad. The general sentiment in the comments seems to agree with the article despite (or because of) its strong opinionation, and apparently this is the most popular article Gary has ever written, which is good publicity for D.

On 03/26/2015 04:44 AM, Gary Willoughby wrote:
> I wrote the article in a rush last night (girlfriend calling me to bed)
> and as a result it has a few spelling/grammar errors which I've
> hopefully corrected.
>
> The article is a total rant about Go after using it over the last month
> or so for a project. I honestly was getting so bored with Go and the
> article that I was literally falling asleep writing it. lol! Is started
> liking Go but after a while I found it increasing difficult trying to
> change me way of working to shoehorn solutions into such a simple language.
>
> I know it's a bit unfair in places and it's got a click bait title but
> who cares? I got my point across and I think people understand where i'm
> coming from. It seems to have got really popular and I've been swamped
> with mail, etc. I think it's the most read article i've ever written.
> ha! :o)

It's funny how the posts that people love to hate are the biggest successes. On my site, I've made probably about about a hundred or so posts, but by FAR the most popular one based on hits and number of comments (in fact one of the very few that ever gets any hits/comments *at all*), was the one where I just bitched and ranted and swore and vented all about dynamic languages and especially Python. Heck, I got as much appreciative comments as I did disapproving ones. And more still roll in now and then. I really need to put up an ad there ;)

But it really is true, controversy sells.

Of course I'm not saying that makes trolling "good" (although I'm absolutely *amazed* that so many on reddit actually see your article as trolling - it obviously isn't, they clearly didn't even read it. Some of them even think *you're* the one who's calling many programmers "lesser" rather than Rob Pike), but it's amazing how much dissonance there is between what people think they hate to read and what they reward with their time and energy and comments.

Oh, also, I wanted to point out one other thing.

On a modern net where sites that look like this are common:

http://thedailywtf.com/articles/are-you-down-with-php-
http://thedailywtf.com/series/code-sod

The visual style on your site is refreshingly easy to look at and read.

On 03/25/2015 07:00 PM, bearophile wrote:
> Ola Fosheim Grøstad:
>
>> Downplaying other languages makes the D crowd look desperate...
>
> That kind of articles are bad for the image of the D community

No. Just...no.

I'm honestly *really* tired of general society's (seemingly?) increasing intolerance FOR intolerance.

Some things ARE bad. Some ideas are dumb ideas (ie without merit). Some features are bad features. Some products really are crappy products. Calling it out when you see it, using a frank explanation of your reasoning, isn't bad, it's productive.

To discourage dissent, objections, or complaints is to rob ourselves of potential improvement. *That's* what critique and complaints and objections ARE: Recognition of the potential for improvement. There *cannot* be progress and improvement without first identifying existing faults. If nobody ever identified and voiced criticism of punchcards, for example, we'd all still be stuck in the world of 1950's computing.

It's not as if "the D crowd" doesn't critique itself and it's own language just plenty, so it's not like there's any hypocrisy here. And I'm certainly not willing to accept that programmers should be viewed as being part of distinct mutually-exclusive factions based on some single-language allegiance. I'm a D guy. I also happen to be a fan of Nemerle. And both languages have things I hate. So scratch the "it's the D crowd" idea.

And seriously, the article in question barely mentions D at all.

So no, this is NOT some sort of "D community piece attacking another language" as some comments seem to imply. It is merely an isolated critique of one language by someone who happens to be *using* the given language.

So he happens to also use D? So what? A lot of people use a lot of langauges. I'm sure the author's used more than just Go and D, too. That certainly doesn't make it one language attacking another. Maybe he's a fan of burritos, too. Maybe then we could take it as a "ZOMG! The burrito enthusiasts are attacking golang!"

On Thursday, 26 March 2015 at 18:00:29 UTC, Nick Sabalausky wrote:
> So no, this is NOT some sort of "D community piece attacking another language" as some comments seem to imply. It is merely an isolated critique of one language by someone who happens to be *using* the given language.

==> digitalmars.D.announce