On Saturday, 14 January 2017 at 02:28:34 UTC, nbro wrote:
> These could be a few starting ideas and options.

To me it sounds like we need better ways of programmers to connect with eachother and discuss. Maybe a library subforum or something?

On Saturday, 14 January 2017 at 02:28:34 UTC, nbro wrote:
> Hi!
>
> I've been following D for at least one year. I like it and I think it's a very good programming language, even though I do not agree with everything it's being done.
>
> One thing that has saddened me is seeing a lot of D's users trying to implement their own library or maybe trying to implement multiple libraries at the same time. Most of the results are very poor because libraries are not
>
> 1. completed
> 2. maintained
> 3. well-written
>
> I've seen comments like "I'm no more maintaining this library because I'm not able to proceed since I do not have the skills". This of course doesn't bring any credibility to the language, to the community, etc. So we see some people trying bring the caravan forward, but I many of these people are not qualified enough clearly, since they do not even have the vision and the knowledge that starting a project like creating a serious GUI or modern IDE is not an easy task, and definitely it won't be a person alone that will create one a decent amount of years that will compete with the most performant ones.
>
> My idea (which is mostly directed to the big names behind D) is that team work should somehow be promoted.
>
> How could you do such a thing?
>
> One possibility could be to announce interesting and useful projects in D and somehow ask for people interesting in working in such projects. These people should clearly be qualified for the job, but this isn't an easy task to verified. The projects could eventually or not be backed up by the announcer of the project.
>
> These could be a few starting ideas and options.

To begin with, an overview of interesting / promising projects would help to see what's there, what's good about them (to avoid re-inventing the wheel), what's bad about them (to invent a better wheel), etc.

The thing is that most of the effort goes into Phobos, language features and optimizations. It is hard to keep up with demands in these sectors and competition is fierce (Go, Rust etc.). Things like GUI libraries are not so important in comparison, as it is not hard at all to bind to the millions of C libraries that are out there.

I think priorities have changed (yet again). For a language to have its own GUI toolkit was important up until say ~2010. Today it's common to use bindings to one of the more mature GUI toolkits, if you need to (mind you, a lot of programs don't have a GUI). Today, language developers have to focus on things like concurrency, memory management and useful language features. So the core developers will always be busy with that kind of stuff, and to get members of the community to work on a big project (GUI/IDE) for years is not very realistic. Interests change, lives change (kids, buying a house, new job, burn out). In fact, with technology being an ever moving target, it might not even be wise to put all your money on one big project (especially with stuff like IDE/GUI), because you run the risk that a better and / or easier options becomes available. Imagine HTML+JS could be compiled to native GUI applications on all platforms - with native look and feel and graphics - and D bindings were trivial.

On Saturday, 14 January 2017 at 02:28:34 UTC, nbro wrote:
> Hi!
>
> I've been following D for at least one year. I like it and I think it's a very good programming language, even though I do not agree with everything it's being done.
>
> One thing that has saddened me is seeing a lot of D's users trying to implement their own library or maybe trying to implement multiple libraries at the same time. Most of the results are very poor because libraries are not
>
> 1. completed
> 2. maintained
> 3. well-written
>
> I've seen comments like "I'm no more maintaining this library because I'm not able to proceed since I do not have the skills". This of course doesn't bring any credibility to the language, to the community, etc. So we see some people trying bring the caravan forward, but I many of these people are not qualified enough clearly, since they do not even have the vision and the knowledge that starting a project like creating a serious GUI or modern IDE is not an easy task, and definitely it won't be a person alone that will create one a decent amount of years that will compete with the most performant ones.
>
> My idea (which is mostly directed to the big names behind D) is that team work should somehow be promoted.
>
> How could you do such a thing?
>
> One possibility could be to announce interesting and useful projects in D and somehow ask for people interesting in working in such projects. These people should clearly be qualified for the job, but this isn't an easy task to verified. The projects could eventually or not be backed up by the announcer of the project.
>
> These could be a few starting ideas and options.

Coincidentally I have been stalking the D community for about a year too. I think I think I get what @nbro is trying to say - at least as far as the D libraries are concerned. I am not a computer scientist, my background is statistics and I have tried ALOT of programming languages and I think D is head and shoulders above them all (at least the ones I've tried).

As far as the core D language and standard libraries are concerned I think they are pretty well looked after probably since their priority is very high. The debates in the forum are also (or mostly) a good thing I think - as long as they remain constructive.

Funnily enough I think Dub is fine (at least for my meagre requirements), but the available libraries are quite woeful - and I don't like saying this since I like D so much, it's also depressing since I think that D is probably the best programming language in the world. However, I think that D attracts highly driven and talented people who also tend to be a little egomaniacal and territorial. There are probably some commercial considerations too. If you turn up asking about how to build a "doodad" and someone else is making money in D with that "doodad" or feels that the topic of that "doodad" is their personal territory, they may not want to join with you to work on it or want to help you with it. Help is given up to a point for some basics or if you discover a bug somewhere, but I see that things get territorial very quickly.

On the other hand there are also projects that are so ambitious that they alienate people. For instance, there are very few programmer that understand how to build data structures, computer algorithms, scientific algorithms, have an awareness of how to code for cpus and understand the ieee context of creating algorithms. Then on top of that understand the specific library configuration and the best way to contribute to it. I'm not saying that people shouldn't have cool projects, but perhaps some projects are trying to do too many things at once or need a better way of organising themselves or need better documentation for contributors?

The support for learning advanced D programming is also quite poor, so unless you come from a pretty good C++ background or have deep computer science knowledge, you will struggle. The material on compile time coding is woeful. The best source I have found is Philippe Sigaud's tutorial but it isn't exactly an industrial strength text on the subject. I think that Ali's Programming in D book is great, but after reading this, "beginners" need more if they are going to productive with D especially because of the dearth of quality libraries. The only other source of good practice advanced D coding is the Github standard library itself.

Its probably a good idea to have a suggested reading list for new programmers that extend outside D at least until there are more suitable D resources. For instance:

1. A book on algorithms and data structures.
2. A book on compilers, language design.
3. ...

Those that are very keen on building their own libraries can have an easier time of it. D needs more programmers taking it seriously and if there aren't enough immediate resources the community needs to be able to point people to where they can learn what they need to gain the knowledge to become useful (or at least dangerous). I think that having more programmers around will (hopefully) result in an increased chance of collaboration.

More positively, since I have been nosing around the community for about a year, I think it is still a very good place to be. Interesting things happen all the time especially in the forums and I love seeing the continued developments of the language, libraries and compilers. I mean, how many language communities support THREE compilers at the same time!? (It's not necessarily a bad thing) D is the kind of language that when you read about it and code in it makes you want to be a better programmer, it excites you and makes you want to learn more and do more. The combination of the power of the language, it's performance is a strong enticement that will keep me around.

On 18/01/2017 12:38 AM, strymon wrote:
> On Saturday, 14 January 2017 at 02:28:34 UTC, nbro wrote:
>> Hi!
>>
>> I've been following D for at least one year. I like it and I think
>> it's a very good programming language, even though I do not agree with
>> everything it's being done.
>>
>> One thing that has saddened me is seeing a lot of D's users trying to
>> implement their own library or maybe trying to implement multiple
>> libraries at the same time. Most of the results are very poor because
>> libraries are not
>>
>> 1. completed
>> 2. maintained
>> 3. well-written
>>
>> I've seen comments like "I'm no more maintaining this library because
>> I'm not able to proceed since I do not have the skills". This of
>> course doesn't bring any credibility to the language, to the
>> community, etc. So we see some people trying bring the caravan
>> forward, but I many of these people are not qualified enough clearly,
>> since they do not even have the vision and the knowledge that starting
>> a project like creating a serious GUI or modern IDE is not an easy
>> task, and definitely it won't be a person alone that will create one a
>> decent amount of years that will compete with the most performant ones.
>>
>> My idea (which is mostly directed to the big names behind D) is that
>> team work should somehow be promoted.
>>
>> How could you do such a thing?
>>
>> One possibility could be to announce interesting and useful projects
>> in D and somehow ask for people interesting in working in such
>> projects. These people should clearly be qualified for the job, but
>> this isn't an easy task to verified. The projects could eventually or
>> not be backed up by the announcer of the project.
>>
>> These could be a few starting ideas and options.
>
> Coincidentally I have been stalking the D community for about a year
> too. I think I think I get what @nbro is trying to say - at least as far
> as the D libraries are concerned. I am not a computer scientist, my
> background is statistics and I have tried ALOT of programming languages
> and I think D is head and shoulders above them all (at least the ones
> I've tried).
>
> As far as the core D language and standard libraries are concerned I
> think they are pretty well looked after probably since their priority is
> very high. The debates in the forum are also (or mostly) a good thing I
> think - as long as they remain constructive.
>
> Funnily enough I think Dub is fine (at least for my meagre
> requirements), but the available libraries are quite woeful - and I
> don't like saying this since I like D so much, it's also depressing
> since I think that D is probably the best programming language in the
> world. However, I think that D attracts highly driven and talented
> people who also tend to be a little egomaniacal and territorial. There
> are probably some commercial considerations too. If you turn up asking
> about how to build a "doodad" and someone else is making money in D with
> that "doodad" or feels that the topic of that "doodad" is their personal
> territory, they may not want to join with you to work on it or want to
> help you with it. Help is given up to a point for some basics or if you
> discover a bug somewhere, but I see that things get territorial very
> quickly.
>
> On the other hand there are also projects that are so ambitious that
> they alienate people. For instance, there are very few programmer that
> understand how to build data structures, computer algorithms, scientific
> algorithms, have an awareness of how to code for cpus and understand the
> ieee context of creating algorithms. Then on top of that understand the
> specific library configuration and the best way to contribute to it. I'm
> not saying that people shouldn't have cool projects, but perhaps some
> projects are trying to do too many things at once or need a better way
> of organising themselves or need better documentation for contributors?
>
> The support for learning advanced D programming is also quite poor, so
> unless you come from a pretty good C++ background or have deep computer
> science knowledge, you will struggle. The material on compile time
> coding is woeful. The best source I have found is Philippe Sigaud's
> tutorial but it isn't exactly an industrial strength text on the
> subject. I think that Ali's Programming in D book is great, but after
> reading this, "beginners" need more if they are going to productive with
> D especially because of the dearth of quality libraries. The only other
> source of good practice advanced D coding is the Github standard library
> itself.
>
> Its probably a good idea to have a suggested reading list for new
> programmers that extend outside D at least until there are more suitable
> D resources. For instance:
>
> 1. A book on algorithms and data structures.
> 2. A book on compilers, language design.
> 3. ...

Ironically I wrote the only (e)book on CTFE[0].

Its a bit out of date and needs some work, but if you want to give me some feedback please email me and I'll get you a coupon (free).

[0] https://leanpub.com/ctfe

On Tuesday, 17 January 2017 at 12:45:09 UTC, rikki cattermole wrote:
>
> Ironically I wrote the only (e)book on CTFE[0].
>
> Its a bit out of date and needs some work, but if you want to give me some feedback please email me and I'll get you a coupon (free).
>
> [0] https://leanpub.com/ctfe

Thanks, I'd be happy to read your book. I'll send the email now.

On Saturday, 14 January 2017 at 03:26:40 UTC, ketmar wrote:
> On Saturday, 14 January 2017 at 03:05:44 UTC, nbro wrote:
>> On Saturday, 14 January 2017 at 02:57:05 UTC, ketmar wrote:
>>> [...]
>>
>> Serious users, to whom I'm directing this post, who really believe in D's potential, should try to collaborate somehow, like ants which are trying to protect their nest and queen. A serious programmer knows that there's no point of starting a "another" project. There must be a goal and the the product must be useful somehow.
>
> "serious people" aren't working for free, you know, especially on "products". but you can keep looking for your "serious people", i won't intervene anymore. i'm not "serious programmer" after all.

Based on this point and the OP you clearly have no idea how software development work in the real world.

On Saturday, 14 January 2017 at 03:05:44 UTC, nbro wrote:
> On Saturday, 14 January 2017 at 02:57:05 UTC, ketmar wrote:
>> On Saturday, 14 January 2017 at 02:28:34 UTC, nbro wrote:
>>> How could you do such a thing?
>>
>> freakin' easy: just pay people to do what you want. either that, or people will keep working on the things *they* are interested (and not someone else).
>
> Serious users, to whom I'm directing this post, who really believe in D's potential, should try to collaborate somehow, like ants which are trying to protect their nest and queen. A serious programmer knows that there's no point of starting a "another" project. There must be a goal and the the product must be useful somehow.

I believe in D's potential and that's the reason why I'm not developing IDE and GUI AppKit as an open-source project. Sorry, but I don't have any motivation to spend 2 years of development something that will not bring me anything. Actually, I want to do it  for full-time and only way how to do it is be paid by large company or make the company by myself.

You cannot expect that people doing theirs full-time jobs will have free time to collaborate on open-source projects. Look, how long it takes to fix bug in D compiler.

On Saturday, 14 January 2017 at 02:28:34 UTC, nbro wrote:
> Hi!
>
> I've been following D for at least one year. I like it and I think it's a very good programming language, even though I do not agree with everything it's being done.
>
> One thing that has saddened me is seeing a lot of D's users trying to implement their own library or maybe trying to implement multiple libraries at the same time. Most of the results are very poor because libraries are not
>
> 1. completed
> 2. maintained
> 3. well-written
>
> I've seen comments like "I'm no more maintaining this library because I'm not able to proceed since I do not have the skills". This of course doesn't bring any credibility to the language, to the community, etc. So we see some people trying bring the caravan forward, but I many of these people are not qualified enough clearly, since they do not even have the vision and the knowledge that starting a project like creating a serious GUI or modern IDE is not an easy task, and definitely it won't be a person alone that will create one a decent amount of years that will compete with the most performant ones.
>
> My idea (which is mostly directed to the big names behind D) is that team work should somehow be promoted.
>
> How could you do such a thing?
>
> One possibility could be to announce interesting and useful projects in D and somehow ask for people interesting in working in such projects. These people should clearly be qualified for the job, but this isn't an easy task to verified. The projects could eventually or not be backed up by the announcer of the project.
>
> These could be a few starting ideas and options.

I have a game engine in the works, but as I plan to use it as my master's thesis (if I find a consultant for it) I cannot really let others to work on it until I either have to give up using it for my thesis or wait until I get my college degree.

However I have other plans to. Some of them include:
 - Creating a more advanced replacement for MIDI, either making my plans that are based upon 128bit packets, or get something usable out of OSC...
 - ...alongside with a new audio plugin system.
 - I created a GUI system for my engine, but I like it so much that I planned to make it usable outside of my engine, and it could be used for D based applications or even in operating systems like PowerNEX.

On these I could get any person who want to help me right in from the start.