On Thursday, 18 January 2024 at 03:17:45 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
> On 1/16/2024 8:13 AM, Lance Bachmeier wrote:
>> The reason I don't want to contribute is because the standard isn't "Does it pass the tests it's supposed to pass?" and "Is it written in an idiomatic style?", the standard is instead the reviewer asking "Is the code written the way I would have written it?" I just don't have time for that.
>
> The larger a project is, the more useful a consistent style is across it.
>
> Though dmd/phobos/druntime each have a different style to them, as do the various other projects that are part of D.
>
> Or maybe you mean something else?

Any such rules need to be stated up front. If they're written down, I don't know where they are. Nobody wants to find out after the fact that their work will be rejected if they don't reformat it (as one simple example).

On Thursday, 18 January 2024 at 02:51:06 UTC, Mike Parker wrote:
> Respect and professionalism is a two-way street. I've seen some of these interactions up close and I can tell you it is not in anyway 100% Walter/Andrei/Atila's fault. There's plenty of blame to go around. [...]
>
> Yes, the DLF needs to find ways to prevent contributors from feeling disrespected, ignored, undervalued, and all of that, and we need to find ways to help them overcome those feelings if they do arise. But please, let's also remember that everyone on the DLF team is just as human as the contributors. We deserve the same respect and professionalism as everyone else.

I agree completely. I think the DLF has a great opportunity to lead by example here, but regardless, someone else's poor behavior is never an excuse for one's own.

> There have been multiple occasions when I've gone into the Discord server and regretted it, asking myself why I'm even bothering to stick around here when the people I'm working for keep crapping all over us and the work we're doing. It got to the point where I dreaded opening it up. Being called stupid, fools, morons, m*fers, and such is the very opposite of a morale booster.

Many open source projects have adopted codes of conduct for their community spaces that forbid this sort of behavior. Perhaps D would benefit from doing the same.

By the way, this is not just a morale killer for the people being called names. It's also discouraging to everyone who makes an effort to behave well when they see rude, inflammatory messages get rewarded with attention and engagement.

> Anyone who is unhappy with a specific decision, process, incident, whatever, is welcome to email me and let me know about it. I'm happy to set up a meeting with the appropriate people to discuss it in person, or facilitate an email conversation with them, or whatever is needed to work it out. Too often, people don't tell us specifically what their root gripes are until they've reached the boiling point, and by then it's too late. So please, let us know before that point comes.

I think most members of the D community are not even aware that this is an option available to them. It would help a lot if the DLF could proactively reach out to some of these people, rather than passively waiting for them to take the first step.

On 1/17/2024 7:49 PM, bachmeier wrote:
>  Nobody wants to find out after the fact that their work will be rejected if they don't reformat it (as one simple example).


https://dlang.org/dstyle.html

https://wiki.dlang.org/Phobos_and_Druntime_Style_Guide

A style checker is also run over PRs as part of the test suite. (I didn't write the style checker nor specify what it does.)

On 1/17/2024 8:57 PM, Paul Backus wrote:
> By the way, this is not just a morale killer for the people being called names. It's also discouraging to everyone who makes an effort to behave well when they see rude, inflammatory messages get rewarded with attention and engagement.

We do enforce a standard of professional behavior in the forum, and a number of posts do get removed. There's a somewhat looser standard when the vitriol is directed at me, at my request and in the spirit of letting people say what they want, but when it is directed at any other forum member it gets the boot.

We also do not allow cursing, political discussions, or other topics that are not about D.

Moderation is under Mike's purview, and his judgements are final and he's got my full support.

On 18/01/2024 3:51 PM, Mike Parker wrote:
> And while we're at it, can we please get rid of this "us vs. them" mentality? We are all here for the same overarching reason: we're enthusiastic about the D programming language. We all want it to succeed, and we all want it to help us achieve our ideas and our goals. It doesn't matter if you're on the DLF team, an employee at one of the D shops, self-employed, or doing this just for fun. So let's please keep that in mind when we're interacting with each other.

Part of the problem that allows this to exist is simply because Walter & Atila are not where the people are.

Yes Walter is active on the N.G., Atila isn't.

However neither are on Discord, the easiest of live chat methods that we have.

It is much harder to call someone a name, if they are responding directly to you.

Of course because Walter keeps saying, I don't care if you insult me (more or less) on the N.G. its not like us moderators can take action, because he has waived an awful lot of the expectation of respect in simply stating that.

It is a shame you didn't tell us how this was making you feel in the first instance. Once you told us I did I was able to change myself to lead changes. But only recently does the worst of the aggressors appear to have left.

On Wednesday, 17 January 2024 at 16:13:27 UTC, Richard (Rikki) Andrew Cattermole wrote:
> On 18/01/2024 5:02 AM, Atila Neves wrote:
>>     The simple fact is, D needs people like Adam Ruppe and Sebastian
>>     Wilzbach more than those people need D. D's leadership cannot afford
>>     to insult and disrespect its contributors until they run out of
>>     patience and leave for greener pastures. And D's leadership
>>     /especially/ cannot afford to cement D in the minds of /potential/
>>     contributors as a language whose leadership is disrespectful,
>>     unprofessional, and frustrating to work with.
>> 
>> I agree.
>> 
>>     This fork should have been a wakeup call, but already, looking at
>>     this thread, I can see that the wrong lessons are being learned.
>> 
>> FWIW, it definitely was a wakeup call, at least for me.
>
> To be blunt, you and Walter are never on Discord,

I've tried multiple times. There's usually 200+ unread messages and they keep coming in pretty quickly. I don't think I'd have time to read half of what ends up on Discord even if D were my full-time job.

> or anywhere where people are normally talking socially.

Other than Discord, where's that? And how would I find the time to do Discord *and* this? I'm not convinced I need to hear everything that's going on, but I'm open to hearing the merits. It's not the same thing, but CEOs aren't expected to be hanging around on slack either.

> If there is a problem you quite often don't hear about it unless it goes through us long timers and even then it could take months.

I'm not aware of any examples, but I believe you. Besides Discord, what do you suggest I do to avoid that in the future? I've been relying on Github mentions.

> I personally have had problems with you not following up on things. That is not conducive towards getting people to contribute.

Yes, I remember, and sorry about that again.

Don't worry about all the talk beyond one page back. If you are needed you would be pinged. Even I as a moderator apply this approach.

As long as you're there, talking occasionally and able to respond if there is a ping, we're golden. Otherwise ignore anything you're not interested in.

Being available if needed is enough. Nobody expects you or anyone else to be a superhuman.

On Thursday, 18 January 2024 at 04:57:36 UTC, Paul Backus wrote:
> On Thursday, 18 January 2024 at 02:51:06 UTC, Mike Parker wrote:
>> Respect and professionalism is a two-way street. I've seen some of these interactions up close and I can tell you it is not in anyway 100% Walter/Andrei/Atila's fault. There's plenty of blame to go around. [...]
>>
>> Yes, the DLF needs to find ways to prevent contributors from feeling disrespected, ignored, undervalued, and all of that, and we need to find ways to help them overcome those feelings if they do arise. But please, let's also remember that everyone on the DLF team is just as human as the contributors. We deserve the same respect and professionalism as everyone else.
>
> I agree completely. I think the DLF has a great opportunity to lead by example here, but regardless, someone else's poor behavior is never an excuse for one's own.
>

As a bystander here I have never observed anything good example from the D core team, so not sure what you are talking about. All the disrespect, vitriol seems to come from so called contributors. If it was me, they would just be kicked out if the attacks were personal and disrespectful.

On Thursday, 18 January 2024 at 10:58:07 UTC, Dibyendu Majumdar wrote:
>
> As a bystander here I have never observed anything good example from the D core team, so not sure what you are talking about. All the disrespect, vitriol seems to come from so called contributors. If it was me, they would just be kicked out if the attacks were personal and disrespectful.

anything "but" good example, I meant to write.