On Wednesday, 23 September 2015 at 10:03:28 UTC, Ola Fosheim Grøstad wrote:
>
> Another question is: what kind of competing solutions are emerging. Herb Sutter seems to have focused his cppcon talk on Rust style memory management in C++. The adoption of Rust does force the C++ designers to switch gears and hopefully the competition will create a push for better solutions.

Nitpick: "Rust style memory management" aka scoped ownership originated in C++ AFAIK, with auto_ptr and Boost containers of owned objects.

Rust enforces it but did not invent it.

On Wednesday, 23 September 2015 at 11:54:09 UTC, ponce wrote:
> Nitpick: "Rust style memory management" aka scoped ownership originated in C++ AFAIK, with auto_ptr and Boost containers of owned objects.
>
> Rust enforces it but did not invent it.

It's been around a long time... C++ tend to absorb features, not invent them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substructural_type_system

On Tuesday, 22 September 2015 at 11:01:28 UTC, Chris wrote:
> On Sunday, 20 September 2015 at 17:32:53 UTC, Adam wrote:
>
>> It's almost exclusively due to the error messages and IDE. I know many here will write off such complaints, So be it.
>>
>
> The thing is that a lot of people who use D don't mind the lack of IDE support.

IDE is not just a nice interface to write code. It's a way to organize files, AST based file browsing, github integration, and - the most important aspect for me - is the *integrated debugging support*. I'll never use dmd from command line and the lack of IDE support would be definitely a stopper for me.

The same people not minding the lack of IDE support are usually the Linux guys. Personally, I don't know any Windows developer masochistic enough to use the command line when an IDE is available for the task described above.

On Wednesday, 23 September 2015 at 18:36:01 UTC, rumbu wrote:
> 
> Personally, I don't know any Windows developer masochistic enough to use the command line when an IDE is available for the task described above.

Nice to meet you, rumbu!
Now you know one!

;-P

---
Paolo

On Wednesday, 23 September 2015 at 18:36:01 UTC, rumbu wrote:
> On Tuesday, 22 September 2015 at 11:01:28 UTC, Chris wrote:
>> On Sunday, 20 September 2015 at 17:32:53 UTC, Adam wrote:

> IDE is not just a nice interface to write code. It's a way to organize files, AST based file browsing, github integration, and - the most important aspect for me - is the *integrated debugging support*. I'll never use dmd from command line and the lack of IDE support would be definitely a stopper for me.
>
> The same people not minding the lack of IDE support are usually the Linux guys. Personally, I don't know any Windows developer masochistic enough to use the command line when an IDE is available for the task described above.

+100

+all the missing libs and goodies - lousy db and gui etc.
and that's why i say good bye. good bye

On Wednesday, 23 September 2015 at 19:52:11 UTC, Paolo Invernizzi wrote:
> On Wednesday, 23 September 2015 at 18:36:01 UTC, rumbu wrote:
>> 
>> Personally, I don't know any Windows developer masochistic enough to use the command line when an IDE is available for the task described above.
>
> Nice to meet you, rumbu!
> Now you know one!
>
> ;-P
>
> ---
> Paolo

Nice to meet you too, Paolo. Browsing through your posts, I saw that you are using "mainly Mono-D" :) Don't tell me that you are coloring the keywords in your code using a marker.

On Wednesday, 23 September 2015 at 18:36:01 UTC, rumbu wrote:
> IDE is not just a nice interface to write code. It's a way to organize files, AST based file browsing, github integration, and - the most important aspect for me - is the *integrated debugging support*. I'll never use dmd from command line and the lack of IDE support would be definitely a stopper for me.

While it is easy to agree with you, I don't think a lack of IDE or even libraries is something one should expect to be addressed by the language developer. Those are issues one can find solutions to if D is suitable and different people have different taste. Go and Rust have been in the same boat. This is not a show stopper...

So I hope the focus stays on language semantics, syntax, runtime and memory management. Emacs with D-mode works ok for now, I think.

On Wednesday, 23 September 2015 at 18:36:01 UTC, rumbu wrote:

>
> IDE is not just a nice interface to write code. It's a way to organize files, AST based file browsing, github integration, and - the most important aspect for me - is the *integrated debugging support*. I'll never use dmd from command line and the lack of IDE support would be definitely a stopper for me.
>
> The same people not minding the lack of IDE support are usually the Linux guys. Personally, I don't know any Windows developer masochistic enough to use the command line when an IDE is available for the task described above.

The weird thing to me about this is that I am a Linux guy, and the stuff that I do in D with Linux is done with MonoDevelop(Xamarin) and Mono-D.  I create solutions/projects just like I do for .NET stuff in Windows.  Granted, you have to follow instructions to set up the compiler, so it is slightly harder than .NET where you don't really have to set anything up.

Still, Mono-D in Windows and Linux has met all of my IDE needs.  Are there some common IDE features that Mono-D/Xamarin don't have that are deal-breakers for the .NET folks?

On Wednesday, 23 September 2015 at 20:41:38 UTC, rumbu wrote:
> On Wednesday, 23 September 2015 at 19:52:11 UTC, Paolo Invernizzi wrote:
>> On Wednesday, 23 September 2015 at 18:36:01 UTC, rumbu wrote:
>>> 
>>> Personally, I don't know any Windows developer masochistic enough to use the command line when an IDE is available for the task described above.
>>
>> Nice to meet you, rumbu!
>> Now you know one!
>>
>> ;-P
>>
>> ---
>> Paolo
>
> Nice to meet you too, Paolo. Browsing through your posts, I saw that you are using "mainly Mono-D" :) Don't tell me that you are coloring the keywords in your code using a marker.

Well, for the most-important-task you wrote, debugging, I still prefer the command line, but I admit, on linux/osx; under windows, VisualD is really a viable choice for debugging.

;-P

For git and file organization, nope, I still prefer to use them outside the IDE...

Cheers!
---
Paolo

On Wednesday, 23 September 2015 at 20:41:38 UTC, rumbu wrote:
> On Wednesday, 23 September 2015 at 19:52:11 UTC, Paolo Invernizzi wrote:
>> On Wednesday, 23 September 2015 at 18:36:01 UTC, rumbu wrote:
>>> 
>>> Personally, I don't know any Windows developer masochistic enough to use the command line when an IDE is available for the task described above.
>>
>> Nice to meet you, rumbu!
>> Now you know one!
>>
>> ;-P
>>
>> ---
>> Paolo
>
> Nice to meet you too, Paolo. Browsing through your posts, I saw that you are using "mainly Mono-D" :) Don't tell me that you are coloring the keywords in your code using a marker.

"Not using an IDE" does not mean "programming with cat" - most text editors have syntax highlighting...

Anyways, I've also used to be one of these Windows developers masochistic enough to use the command line. I've used it back when I was programming in C#, which means I had to write .csproj files by hand(deep down they resemble Ant, but Visual Studio seems to be writing all sorts of crap in there) and build the projects from the command line using MSBuild, but it was worth it because it means I could build seamlessly from Vim, and I could write deployment scripts that run on the server.

That being said - when I said "used to be" it's not because I'm no longer a "masochist", but because I'm no longer a Windows developer(so yes, I'm no longer a masochist...) - so you can say I was already in the Linux developer mindset and it's no surprise I preferred the command line. Even back then, I was disturbed by the fact that so many programmers feel uncomfortable with the idea of typing textual commands to make computers do things...