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ARM first & default LDC
Dec 14
9il
Dec 14
M.M.
Dec 14
Abdulhaq
Dec 14
IGotD-
Dec 14
IGotD-
Dec 17
claptrap
Dec 17
9il
Dec 17
claptrap
Dec 17
claptrap
Dec 18
claptrap
Dec 19
aberba
Dec 19
aberba
Dec 19
claptrap
Dec 19
IGotD-
Dec 20
Calvin P
Dec 30
claptrap
Dec 20
0xEAB
Dec 19
Jeeferson
Dec 19
Jeeferson
Dec 20
claptrap
Dec 19
Kali
Dec 14
9il
Dec 14
Calvin P
Dec 14
tsbockman
Dec 15
RSY
Dec 15
bachmeier
Dec 15
IGotD-
Dec 15
9il
Dec 15
Calvin P
Dec 15
9il
Dec 15
twk
December 14
ARM is going to conquer laptop and PC markets in the next few years.

Making LDC a default compiler looks like a more rational solution. By default, I mean a branch where we do the main work on the compiler and DRuntime and what is used to make the first release of the new version of the compiler.

I just realized why we still have DMD as the default compiler and why probably we would have it in the near future.

D Foundation wants to have full power to make all key decisions. Making LDC a default compiler would also mean they would need to share their authority with others. That is only my opinion, I don't pretend it is right.

Kind regards,
Ilya

December 14
On Monday, 14 December 2020 at 04:35:31 UTC, 9il wrote:
> ARM is going to conquer laptop and PC markets in the next few years.
>
> Making LDC a default compiler looks like a more rational solution. By default, I mean a branch where we do the main work on the compiler and DRuntime and what is used to make the first release of the new version of the compiler.
>
> I just realized why we still have DMD as the default compiler and why probably we would have it in the near future.
>
> D Foundation wants to have full power to make all key decisions. Making LDC a default compiler would also mean they would need to share their authority with others. That is only my opinion, I don't pretend it is right.
>
> Kind regards,
> Ilya

+1
December 14
On Monday, 14 December 2020 at 04:35:31 UTC, 9il wrote:
> ARM is going to conquer laptop and PC markets in the next few years.
>
> Making LDC a default compiler looks like a more rational solution. By default, I mean a branch where we do the main work on the compiler and DRuntime and what is used to make the first release of the new version of the compiler.
>
> I just realized why we still have DMD as the default compiler and why probably we would have it in the near future.
>
> D Foundation wants to have full power to make all key decisions. Making LDC a default compiler would also mean they would need to share their authority with others. That is only my opinion, I don't pretend it is right.
>
> Kind regards,
> Ilya

There are several points you made in your comment. I freely paraphrase the content:
i) ARM will dominate the consumer laptop market in the short future
ii) make LDC the compiler where language development happens (and other compilers take it from there)
iii) allow a more decentralized work on the default D compiler (currently dmd)

I agree that these are interesting points to discuss; yet I also think that they do not necessarily depend on each other(?), and they are interesting discussion points on their own.

Ad i): this might indeed be true (as observed by the efforts of Microsoft several years ago with their operating system, and currently with the success of the apple M1 processor), yet there are also open-source efforts on the horizon (risc-v and power), but I agree this battle might be decided in the next 1-2 years.

Ad ii): isn't it that having dmd the development branch allows GDC and LDC to follow? Also, why would one prefer LDC over GDC? GDC is part of GCC, which is huge. I think here an opinion from the compiler maintainers/developers is needed, and I would be delighted to  hear their (even very short) opinion.

Ad iii): Isn't it true that contributions to dmd are welcome? Are there technical obstacles in contributing? Philosophical ones?
December 14
On Mon, Dec 14, 2020 at 5:40 AM 9il via Digitalmars-d < digitalmars-d@puremagic.com> wrote:

> ARM is going to conquer laptop and PC markets in the next few years.
>

Yes, that is something I can agree with. But it will take 3-5 years.


> Making LDC a default compiler looks like a more rational solution. By default, I mean a branch where we do the main work on the compiler and DRuntime and what is used to make the first release of the new version of the compiler.
>

No, I do not see any benefit from this.


> I just realized why we still have DMD as the default compiler and why probably we would have it in the near future.
>
> D Foundation wants to have full power to make all key decisions. Making LDC a default compiler would also mean they would need to share their authority with others. That is only my opinion, I don't pretend it is right.
>

If D  Foundation would selected LDC as a default compiler I believe LDC would need to accept D Foundation as their leadership


December 14
On Mon, Dec 14, 2020 at 10:22 AM Daniel Kozak <kozzi11@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Dec 14, 2020 at 5:40 AM 9il via Digitalmars-d < digitalmars-d@puremagic.com> wrote:
>
>> ARM is going to conquer laptop and PC markets in the next few years.
>>
>
> Yes, that is something I can agree with. But it will take 3-5 years.
>

So from my POV DMD should add support for ARM64 in next few years and everything will be ok


December 14
On Monday, 14 December 2020 at 04:35:31 UTC, 9il wrote:
> ARM is going to conquer laptop and PC markets in the next few years.
>
> Making LDC a default compiler looks like a more rational solution. By default, I mean a branch where we do the main work on the compiler and DRuntime and what is used to make the first release of the new version of the compiler.
>
> I just realized why we still have DMD as the default compiler and why probably we would have it in the near future.
>
> D Foundation wants to have full power to make all key decisions. Making LDC a default compiler would also mean they would need to share their authority with others. That is only my opinion, I don't pretend it is right.
>
> Kind regards,
> Ilya

I think you're mixing up two things here.

DMD is Walter's baby and he's going to continue with that, having power over it is secondary to that.

D Foundation of course want to retain control over what they have built, it's years and years of their hard work, decades even. Why should they give control to someone else and why think that that other group would do any better? Arguably it would be irresponsible to do that.

December 14
On Monday, 14 December 2020 at 09:57:05 UTC, Abdulhaq wrote:
>
> I think you're mixing up two things here.
>
> DMD is Walter's baby and he's going to continue with that, having power over it is secondary to that.
>
> D Foundation of course want to retain control over what they have built, it's years and years of their hard work, decades even. Why should they give control to someone else and why think that that other group would do any better? Arguably it would be irresponsible to do that.

There is one thing that worries me. GCC and LLVM contains primitives for optimizations and help for certain features. These primitives are often complicated and takes time to duplicate in the DMD backend. The result is that D will not use the helpful primitives in LLVM and therefore skip certain features that would otherwise be simpler to implement.

The DMD backend might be Walter's darling but what if he could move to LLVM, discover all the helpful primitives which perhaps increase the productivity and new ideas might emerge. It's a selling point.
December 14
On Monday, 14 December 2020 at 04:35:31 UTC, 9il wrote:
> ARM is going to conquer laptop and PC markets in the next few years.
>
> Making LDC a default compiler looks like a more rational solution.

Why does there have to be a default compiler?

December 14
On Monday, 14 December 2020 at 10:48:43 UTC, IGotD- wrote:
> On Monday, 14 December 2020 at 09:57:05 UTC, Abdulhaq wrote:
>> [...]
>
> There is one thing that worries me. GCC and LLVM contains primitives for optimizations and help for certain features. These primitives are often complicated and takes time to duplicate in the DMD backend. The result is that D will not use the helpful primitives in LLVM and therefore skip certain features that would otherwise be simpler to implement.
>
> The DMD backend might be Walter's darling but what if he could move to LLVM, discover all the helpful primitives which perhaps increase the productivity and new ideas might emerge. It's a selling point.

What optimisation primitives?
December 14
On Monday, 14 December 2020 at 12:54:23 UTC, Max Haughton wrote:
> On Monday, 14 December 2020 at 10:48:43 UTC, IGotD- wrote:
>> On Monday, 14 December 2020 at 09:57:05 UTC, Abdulhaq wrote:
>>> [...]
>>
>> There is one thing that worries me. GCC and LLVM contains primitives for optimizations and help for certain features. These primitives are often complicated and takes time to duplicate in the DMD backend. The result is that D will not use the helpful primitives in LLVM and therefore skip certain features that would otherwise be simpler to implement.
>>
>> The DMD backend might be Walter's darling but what if he could move to LLVM, discover all the helpful primitives which perhaps increase the productivity and new ideas might emerge. It's a selling point.
>
> What optimisation primitives?

One recent example are the LLVM primitives for coroutines posted in this thread. Look at the seminar video.
https://forum.dlang.org/thread/rr0jju$eub$1@digitalmars.com
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