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March 30, 2005
Re: Phobos: The Final Tally
David Barrett wrote:

> So Walter, if I just went ahead and updated all the documentation and 
> library code to standardize on the term "D Standard Library", would you 
> integrate that with the main tree?

The current documentations says : "Phobos, D Runtime Library".
http://www.digitalmars.com/d/phobos.html


When (if) the runtime library (internal) and gc and the standard library
have been separated, then "D Standard Library" is probably a good name
to use for the documentation of the classes within the "std" dir tree...

The regular enduser and newcomer probably won't care about the runtime.
They will, however, care about the standard library for the D language.
Especially the documentation thereof... (need I say Doxygen once again?)


There has been work done in the Ares project, to separate the three:
http://www.dsource.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=378
(the idea is to cut out the "rt" and the "gc" from the "std" library)

So me too think it's a good idea to rename Phobos the "Standard Library"
(I'm not sure if the runtime and trashman need any special code names ?
If they do, I submit "Mariner" and "Viking". No idea which is which :-))


For *special* uses, the standard library shouldn't even be required...
(i.e. the D runtime should be enough to compile a program, without std)

--anders
March 30, 2005
Re: Phobos: The Final Tally
David Barrett wrote:
> As for the final tally, it sounds like nobody's passionate for changing the 
> name except for me.  That said, nobody's passionately (mildly, but not 
> passionately) against changing it either.  The bulk just don't seem to care 
> one way or the other.
> 
> So Walter, if I just went ahead and updated all the documentation and 
> library code to standardize on the term "D Standard Library", would you 
> integrate that with the main tree?
> 
> To repeat my reasoning, I think that Phobos is a great codename, and should 
> serve its place in history.  But codenames, by definition, are not public 
> names.  By referring to the D standard library by codename (or worse, with a 
> variety of names), it confuses new users and reinforces the notion that D is 
> messy and incomplete.
> 
> And as for the source of my passion, I don't think this is the #1 issue 
> facing D.  Not even #10.  But it is an issue, and it seemed like the best 
> place to start in helping D along in its path to greatness.
> 
> -david

I guess then I should speak up, as I like the name Phobos. I would very 
much hate to see it named to 'D Standard Library', even if you did 
somehow persuade Walter to do so. I've never viewed Phobos as a 
codename, but as the *real* name. That is, in fact, how it is presented 
in the documentation. And did Walter ever say he intended it to be a 
'codename'? Anyway, I disagree completely with your reasoning and see 
the name Phobos as a boon rather than a hindrance. It adds a bit of 
pinache to things.
March 30, 2005
Re: Phobos: What's in a name?
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 13:21:29 +1000, Matthew <admin.hat@stlsoft.dot.org>  
wrote:
> "David Barrett" <dbarrett@quinthar.com> wrote in message  
> news:d2d505$3029$1@digitaldaemon.com...
>> Ok, sounds like the tally is as follows:
>>
>> [For renaming Phobos to "D Standard Library"] J C Calvarese, David  
>> Barrett
>> [For renaming Phobos, but to something else (Diesel)] Derek Parnell,  
>> Matthew
>> [Ambivalent] Ben Hinkle
>> [Against renaming] David L. Davis
>>
>> [Unknown] Anders F Björklund, Carlos Santander B, Sean Kelly, Walter,  
>> Benjamin Herr,  Georg Wrede, Trevor Parscal,
>> everyone else
>>
>> I apologize in advance if I've mis-categorized anyone; please correct  
>> me.
>
> I'm not allied to the one you've put me on. If I have to be somewhere, I  
> think I'm probably with Ben. (Which makes a
> nice change <g>)
>
> But I really think this is an irrelevance, c/w the real issues with  
> Phobos itself.

I am with you here.

> And I have to disagree with Walter's recent assertion (or maybe my  
> interpretation of it) that bug fixing in the
> language/compiler is more important than fixing Phobos. I think unless  
> and until D has a good library that has been well
> and widely tested, it makes advances in and improvement of the  
> language/compiler somewhat moot. To me, they're 50-50,
> not 80-20 (or 70-30 or whatever figure might be induced from Walter's  
> post).

I'm not with you here. In my recent experience, of having tried to write  
some "library" code using templates and mixins, I found that until the  
bugs/problems in the compiler are resolved I cannot write the "library"  
code in the way it "should" be written. At best I could produce something  
that worked in some hackish or ungainly manner. I am loath to produce code  
for a library that is hackish. It's what is currently stopping me from  
producing large amounts of code in D (that and spare time), every time I  
get started I hit these bumps in the road.

Regan
March 30, 2005
Re: Phobos: What's in a name?
>> And I have to disagree with Walter's recent assertion (or maybe my  interpretation of it) that bug fixing in the
>> language/compiler is more important than fixing Phobos. I think unless  and until D has a good library that has been 
>> well
>> and widely tested, it makes advances in and improvement of the  language/compiler somewhat moot. To me, they're 
>> 50-50,
>> not 80-20 (or 70-30 or whatever figure might be induced from Walter's  post).
>
> I'm not with you here. In my recent experience, of having tried to write  some "library" code using templates and 
> mixins, I found that until the  bugs/problems in the compiler are resolved I cannot write the "library"  code in the 
> way it "should" be written. At best I could produce something  that worked in some hackish or ungainly manner. I am 
> loath to produce code  for a library that is hackish. It's what is currently stopping me from  producing large amounts 
> of code in D (that and spare time), every time I  get started I hit these bumps in the road.

Are you suggesting that your aims and experience - common to us all, I'm sure - are representative of the broad mass of 
putative D users come a 1.0 release? That's the only really important audience, and if they're not catered for, then D 
won't prosper.
March 30, 2005
Re: Phobos: What's in a name?
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 21:06:38 +1000, Matthew <admin.hat@stlsoft.dot.org>  
wrote:
>>> And I have to disagree with Walter's recent assertion (or maybe my   
>>> interpretation of it) that bug fixing in the
>>> language/compiler is more important than fixing Phobos. I think  
>>> unless  and until D has a good library that has been
>>> well
>>> and widely tested, it makes advances in and improvement of the   
>>> language/compiler somewhat moot. To me, they're
>>> 50-50,
>>> not 80-20 (or 70-30 or whatever figure might be induced from Walter's   
>>> post).
>>
>> I'm not with you here. In my recent experience, of having tried to  
>> write  some "library" code using templates and
>> mixins, I found that until the  bugs/problems in the compiler are  
>> resolved I cannot write the "library"  code in the
>> way it "should" be written. At best I could produce something  that  
>> worked in some hackish or ungainly manner. I am
>> loath to produce code  for a library that is hackish. It's what is  
>> currently stopping me from  producing large amounts
>> of code in D (that and spare time), every time I  get started I hit  
>> these bumps in the road.
>
> Are you suggesting that your aims and experience - common to us all, I'm  
> sure - are representative of the broad mass of
> putative D users come a 1.0 release?

I'm suggesting that before we can write a good library (standard or  
otherwise) we need a solid bug-free compiler which compiles everything the  
spec suggests it should compile.

> That's the only really important audience, and if they're not catered  
> for, then D
> won't prosper.

If D reaches 1.0, gets a lot of exposure and is not "ready" that will  
likely harm it's chances of success at least in the short term, long  
term.. people are generally willing to give something a second chance.

Regan
March 30, 2005
Re: Phobos: What's in a name?
Ehm?  Someone call?  I post here so little I'm surprised I was mentioned...

Frankly, I don't think it matters, since someone asked me (?).  Wars 
have been won and lost and no one remembers the names of the people who 
made the weapons waged.  Or maybe I just didn't pay good attention in 
Social Studies.

-[Unknown]


> [Unknown] Anders F Björklund, Carlos Santander B, Sean Kelly, Walter, 
> Benjamin Herr,  Georg Wrede, Trevor Parscal, everyone else
March 30, 2005
Re: Phobos: What's in a name?
Regan Heath wrote:

>> Are you suggesting that your aims and experience - common to us all, 
>> I'm  sure - are representative of the broad mass of
>> putative D users come a 1.0 release?
> 
> I'm suggesting that before we can write a good library (standard or  
> otherwise) we need a solid bug-free compiler which compiles everything 
> the  spec suggests it should compile.

Wouldn't we need a solid bug-free specification, before that
compiler can be written ? :-)

I'm afraid they would all have to evolve in parallell,
the way it is now...


But as a part of a release procedure, what you are suggesting
sounds like a reasonable approach... First finalize the spec,
then make sure the compiler follows the spec (e.g. Dstress)
then make sure the standard library is reasonably bug-free
(e.g. by using all of : warnings, contracts, and unittests)

Made a list on the Wiki4D, feel free to add to it:
http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?HelpDProgress

--anders
March 30, 2005
Re: Phobos: The Final Tally
"Mike Parker" <aldacron71@yahoo.com> wrote in message 
news:d2e013$qls$1@digitaldaemon.com...
> I guess then I should speak up, as I like the name Phobos. I would very 
> much hate to see it named to 'D Standard Library', even if you did somehow 
> persuade Walter to do so. I've never viewed Phobos as a codename, but as 
> the *real* name. That is, in fact, how it is presented in the 
> documentation. And did Walter ever say he intended it to be a 'codename'? 
> Anyway, I disagree completely with your reasoning and see the name Phobos 
> as a boon rather than a hindrance. It adds a bit of pinache to things.

That's a fair comment.  Would you support renaming the "std" namespace to be 
"phobos"?

I think it's that discrepancy that bothers me the most.  It's like "Hi, my 
name is David, spelled B-O-B".

I'll admit, "Phobos" doesn't excite me.  But I'd be much happier if the name 
of the package and, well, the name of the package were the same.

Given that changing "std" would break a lot of code and changing "Phobos" 
would break almost none, I favor changing Phobos, though I'd be happy with 
either.

Changing neither leaves D in what I believe is a confusing and 
unprofessional state.

-david
March 30, 2005
Re: Phobos: What's in a name?
"Regan Heath" <regan@netwin.co.nz> wrote in message news:opsof7f4jz23k2f5@nrage.netwin.co.nz...
> On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 21:06:38 +1000, Matthew <admin.hat@stlsoft.dot.org>  wrote:
>>>> And I have to disagree with Walter's recent assertion (or maybe my   interpretation of it) that bug fixing in the
>>>> language/compiler is more important than fixing Phobos. I think  unless  and until D has a good library that has 
>>>> been
>>>> well
>>>> and widely tested, it makes advances in and improvement of the   language/compiler somewhat moot. To me, they're
>>>> 50-50,
>>>> not 80-20 (or 70-30 or whatever figure might be induced from Walter's   post).
>>>
>>> I'm not with you here. In my recent experience, of having tried to  write  some "library" code using templates and
>>> mixins, I found that until the  bugs/problems in the compiler are  resolved I cannot write the "library"  code in 
>>> the
>>> way it "should" be written. At best I could produce something  that  worked in some hackish or ungainly manner. I am
>>> loath to produce code  for a library that is hackish. It's what is  currently stopping me from  producing large 
>>> amounts
>>> of code in D (that and spare time), every time I  get started I hit  these bumps in the road.
>>
>> Are you suggesting that your aims and experience - common to us all, I'm  sure - are representative of the broad mass 
>> of
>> putative D users come a 1.0 release?
>
> I'm suggesting that before we can write a good library (standard or  otherwise) we need a solid bug-free compiler 
> which compiles everything the  spec suggests it should compile.

And I'm suggesting that a concurrent approach is more sensible, and far more likely to lead to success for all 
concerned.

>> That's the only really important audience, and if they're not catered  for, then D
>> won't prosper.
>
> If D reaches 1.0, gets a lot of exposure and is not "ready" that will  likely harm it's chances of success at least in 
> the short term, long  term.. people are generally willing to give something a second chance.

Don't follow. Can you rephrase?
March 30, 2005
Re: Phobos: What's in a name?
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 01:46:07 -0800, Walter wrote:

> "Derek Parnell" <derek@psych.ward> wrote in message
> news:flusmieh5ey1$.1vupt1onsq15r$.dlg@40tude.net...
>> It was a joke, David, though its growing on me. Truthfully, I don't really
>> give a dam about the name. Its the content and structure that is much,
>> much, more important. I'm not greatly swayed by the names people give to
>> things, and the "Phobos" moniker has never brought to my mind the idea of
> a
>> toy language or library. Actually, I think its rather clever. But like I
>> said, call it whatever, and it'll still be its contents rather than its
>> name.
> 
> I like the name Phobos. I don't think it's cute, certainly it's less cute
> than 'Boost' which is a silly name that hasn't impeded it in the slightest.
> Nobody thinks Boost is a toy. I've seen endless 3 letter acronyms, and would
> like to just be a bit more creative than "DSL" or other boring acronym.

I'm sorry...did I use the word "cute" somewhere? I don't think so. Did I
imply that I thought D/Phobos was a toy? I don't think so. In fact, I said
the opposite! Did I suggest a TLA, eg. DSL? I don't think so. Are you
reading my words or making my words? I'm now very confused.

> I've had thoughts of naming all D libraries after moons. <g>
>
> I like "Diemos" very much as the etc library.

Me too, though I spell it differently. There are heaps of Solar moons out
there so we shouldn't run out of names too quickly. I guess the module for
input-output functions should be called Io ;-)

> "Java" is another name for a major product that is not impeded by its name.

Where *did* that name come from. I suppose they couldn't really have used
Sumatra, or Suluwasi, or Irian Jaya, or Kalamantan, ...

> "Euphoria", well, it sounds like a designer drug. I wouldn't be surprised if
> it is held back by that name.

You know, I've heard a lot of people say or imply that, but I have never
actually thought that. In fact, I can't see the connection at all - must be
my innocent upbringing ;-) Actually its being held back because its
controlled by a single person who is extremely slow to upgrade it, refuses
to consider anything that goes against his programming philosophy, and
refuses all attempts at outside assistance - but I could be totally wrong.

> I agree that what the library does is far more important than its name.

Nice.

-- 
Derek Parnell
Melbourne, Australia
30/03/2005 10:14:50 PM
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