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March 30, 2005
Phobos: Renaming, Reorganizing, etc...
I am, for the record, despite the categoriztion of my view in a recent post.

FOR changing the name Phobos to something else.
FOR keeping std as the namespace of the Standard Library
FOR reorganizing things, a bit more structure
and
FOR getting rid of the annoying package/module problem

This last one was the most dissapointing thing to me when learning D. I feel
like my code has to be organized in a way that I do not prefer, and when a
language takes that freedom from a programmer, that is a bad thing.

I know we all just deal with it, but it can cause annoying problems, and I must
suggest some alternative ideas of handling packages and modules.

Example Structure

[/] source
---[-] string.d
---[/] string
------[-] convert.d

1: Automatic recursive module inclusion.
This would cause "import string;" to import string.d and the contents of the
string package, like convert.d. If you only wanted string.d, you would be out of
luck, this is the downside...

2: Manual recursive module inclusion.
This gives you more control, but requires new language. For instance, "import
string;" would only import the string.d module, but "import.string.*;" could
grab the contents of the string package. Also, you can acutally say "import
string.convert;" which you cant do with D right now, which sucks.

3: Clarification of module vs package
This would make it so you are using a different manner to include just the
string module (string.d) or the entire string package (including string.d if
present). So, "import string;" would include just the module, and "imports
string;" does everything. I guess the naming could be different. Depends on
whether you see "import module" as a command like "do this" or a definition like
"type name". If the latter is your opinion, than imports makes sense, because it
is the plurar version of import, however as a command, it's confusing, which is
bad.

Other ideas on how to solve this problem are out there, and we should look at
them too. All I know is it's really annoying to have to name things the way I
have to. I think it breaks the object orientation concept when you cant have a
module have submodues (string = module and string.convert = module)..

Reorganizing things of course makes things break, but lets do it NOW while the
code we are breaking is minimal.

Also, ideas other than phobos are not a bad idea. I mean, if you don't think
that the D Standard Library being in the std namespace makes sense, that you
could come up with SOMETHING more professional than Phobos. Naming things IS
important, even though it doesn't change the way the code works. I agree that
Java's name stuck, but Java is at least a word in most people's vocabulary.

Finally, this forum system is pretty lame. I am glad it is here, but honestly,
how hard is it to grab a copy of PhpBB? If Digital Mars doesn't want to make the
upgrade, I would be glad to host a modern board on my own server... And if you
think this board is fine, and wonder why I think it is lame, here are my
complaints, that would all be fixed if you used a modern (FREE AND OPEN SOURCE)
board like PhpBB.

1: Posts take too long to show up
2: Posts are not organized by topic
3: The interface is ugly
4: Users cannot register and settings/identity be recalled
5: No search tools

PLEASE considder using a modern board! It would really help get questions
answered, things decided, a community grown.

Thanks,
Trevor Parscal
www.trevorparscal.com
March 30, 2005
Re: Phobos: Renaming, Reorganizing, etc...
Trevor Parscal wrote:

> Finally, this forum system is pretty lame. I am glad it is here, but honestly,
> how hard is it to grab a copy of PhpBB? If Digital Mars doesn't want to make the
> upgrade, I would be glad to host a modern board on my own server...
[...]
> PLEASE considder using a modern board! It would really help get questions
> answered, things decided, a community grown.

This is not a web forum but a newsgroup. It's still old and such, but
if you use a newsreader like Mozilla Thunderbird it's not *that* lame.

The stuff on http://www.digitalmars.com/drn-bin/wwwnews?digitalmars.D
is more like what "webmail" is to regular email, if you see what I mean.


There's a "modern" forum on http://www.dsource.org/forums/
(but be aware that a lot of us old-timers prefer newsgroups
and mailing lists over web forums, just like we prefer email
over chat messages and other such newfangled inventions ;-) )

--anders
March 30, 2005
Re: Phobos: What's in a name?
Derek Parnell wrote:
> On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 01:46:07 -0800, Walter wrote:

>>"Java" is another name for a major product that is not impeded by its name.
> 
> 
> Where *did* that name come from. I suppose they couldn't really have used
> Sumatra, or Suluwasi, or Irian Jaya, or Kalamantan, ...
> 

Originally, it was called Oak internally at Sun. I read somewhere once 
that, when they decided to release it to the public, there was a meeting 
to brainstorm a new name for the language. Someone had a coffee cup from 
a local coffee shop the team often visited, and the name of the shop 
contained the word "Java".
March 30, 2005
Re: Phobos: Renaming, Reorganizing, etc...
>
>There's a "modern" forum on http://www.dsource.org/forums/
>(but be aware that a lot of us old-timers prefer newsgroups
>and mailing lists over web forums, just like we prefer email
>over chat messages and other such newfangled inventions ;-) )
>
>--anders

Thanks for the link. I will take a look at Thunderbird.

Thanks,
Trevor Parscal
www.trevorparscal.com
March 30, 2005
Re: Phobos: What's in a name?
In article <d2d7hh$jf$1@digitaldaemon.com>, Matthew says...
>
>As someone with little/no knowledge of Ares, I want to hear from _this_ community whether people who care about 
>contributing to a material jump in quality of D's libraries (DSL included) should persevere here and try to push reform 
>of Phobos, or should give up and move over to DSource and work on Ares.

I've (quite obviously) decided to go the Ares route.  While I like the official
stamp of approval of having something in Phobos, contributing to Phobos often
feels like pissing in the wind.  It's a crapshoot whether a submission will be
accepted and how long it will take.  I understand that a lot of this is because
Walter is busy with other things, but I'm impatient :)

>Furthermore, if it's the latter, is there any structure/agreement/plan for how the presumed advances in Ares would be 
>married back into D(MD) before 1.0?

Not really.  I'm hoping that if Ares shapes up nicely then it will be accepted.
But if it isn't then I plan to use it anyway.  Either way, if D is standardized
then Phobos will undergo a similar process that Ares is now, so perhaps Ares
could be considered the Boost of the D world :p


Sean
March 30, 2005
Re: Phobos: What's in a name? (Java)
"Anders F Björklund" <afb@algonet.se> wrote in message
news:d2dutv$p1n$1@digitaldaemon.com...
> Walter wrote:
>
> > "Java" is another name for a major product that is not impeded by its
name.
> So I'm not sure that Java sets a very good example of non-confusion ?

I didn't mean it that way, just that naming a language after a country seems
to have worked fine for Sun.
March 30, 2005
Re: Phobos: What's in a name?
"Derek Parnell" <derek@psych.ward> wrote in message
news:1nb20obbzmw4h$.1sphbdak9p50o.dlg@40tude.net...
> On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 01:46:07 -0800, Walter wrote:
> > I like the name Phobos. I don't think it's cute, certainly it's less
cute
> > than 'Boost' which is a silly name that hasn't impeded it in the
slightest.
> > Nobody thinks Boost is a toy. I've seen endless 3 letter acronyms, and
would
> > like to just be a bit more creative than "DSL" or other boring acronym.
>
> I'm sorry...did I use the word "cute" somewhere? I don't think so. Did I
> imply that I thought D/Phobos was a toy? I don't think so. In fact, I said
> the opposite! Did I suggest a TLA, eg. DSL? I don't think so. Are you
> reading my words or making my words? I'm now very confused.

I apologize for making the insinuation. I was essentially replying to all
the posts in this thread, not just yours.
March 30, 2005
Re: Phobos: The Final Tally
"David Barrett" <dbarrett@quinthar.com> wrote in message
news:d2duij$p6p$1@digitaldaemon.com...
> As for the final tally, it sounds like nobody's passionate for changing
the
> name except for me.  That said, nobody's passionately (mildly, but not
> passionately) against changing it either.  The bulk just don't seem to
care
> one way or the other.
>
> So Walter, if I just went ahead and updated all the documentation and
> library code to standardize on the term "D Standard Library", would you
> integrate that with the main tree?
>
> To repeat my reasoning, I think that Phobos is a great codename, and
should
> serve its place in history.  But codenames, by definition, are not public
> names.  By referring to the D standard library by codename (or worse, with
a
> variety of names), it confuses new users and reinforces the notion that D
is
> messy and incomplete.
>
> And as for the source of my passion, I don't think this is the #1 issue
> facing D.  Not even #10.  But it is an issue, and it seemed like the best
> place to start in helping D along in its path to greatness.

I understand your passion, but I respectfully disagree.  I just don't see it
as unprofessional to give the standard D library a name.
March 30, 2005
Re: Phobos: Renaming, Reorganizing, etc...
In article <d2e710$11s8$1@digitaldaemon.com>, Trevor Parscal says...
>
>Finally, this forum system is pretty lame. I am glad it is here, but honestly,
>how hard is it to grab a copy of PhpBB? If Digital Mars doesn't want to make the
>upgrade, I would be glad to host a modern board on my own server... And if you
>think this board is fine, and wonder why I think it is lame, here are my
>complaints, that would all be fixed if you used a modern (FREE AND OPEN SOURCE)
>board like PhpBB.

Perhaps I'm from the old school in this regard, but I love usenet.  And some
clients, web and otherwise, are quite good.  Check out groups.google.com to see
a good web client.  In fact, petition Google to add the digitalmars.* to its
list.  I've already done so and plan to do so again.


Sean
March 30, 2005
Re: Phobos: Renaming, Reorganizing, etc...
"Trevor Parscal" <Trevor_member@pathlink.com> wrote in message
news:d2e710$11s8$1@digitaldaemon.com...
> FOR getting rid of the annoying package/module problem
>
> This last one was the most dissapointing thing to me when learning D. I
feel
> like my code has to be organized in a way that I do not prefer, and when a
> language takes that freedom from a programmer, that is a bad thing.

I read your post, but I just didn't understand what the problem you're
seeing is. Can you please try again?
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