Hi,

> Yes.. except.. the original problem that 'frames' solve, if badly,  remains. It is mentioned in the 2nd link, I quote...
> 
> "Introduced by Netscape in 1996, frames were introduced as a (seemingly)  creative solution to a common concern. When a user scrolls a page to view  more content, the navigational items are taken out of view as well. The  solution? Separate the content from the navigation so that the navigation  is always visible and usable for the visitor."
> 
> So, while I agree: "frames are not the solution" where does that leave  you? Do you simply ensure your users never need to scroll your pages? do  you add a floating menu? (hell no, IMO) what is the solution?
> 
> Regan

Personally, given the new design, I don't think the navigation menu is an issue. IMHO, the "scrolling problem" is overrated. Maybe it's because I have a really fast, adaptive acceleration scroll wheel ;).

Having said that, before some ungodly javascript floating hack is introduced to create the effect of a fixed menu, please consider using the official solution, which is CSS.

Here's a simple example:

http://limpid.nl/lab/css/fixed/left-sidebar

Variations, including headers/footers, left and right, etc. can be found here:

http://annevankesteren.nl/2004/07/fixed-positioning

Enjoy,
--AJG.

"AJG" <AJG@nospam.com> wrote in message news:dedsd4$1jig$1@digitaldaemon.com...
> What do you think?

The problem is it will break existing links to those pages.

"AJG" <AJG@nospam.com> wrote in message news:deduje$1mca$1@digitaldaemon.com...
> Having said that, before some ungodly javascript floating hack is introduced to create the effect of a fixed menu, please consider using the official solution, which is CSS.
>
> Here's a simple example:
>
> http://limpid.nl/lab/css/fixed/left-sidebar
>
> Variations, including headers/footers, left and right, etc. can be found here:
>
> http://annevankesteren.nl/2004/07/fixed-positioning

That looks pretty good.

"AJG" <AJG@nospam.com> wrote in message news:deduje$1mca$1@digitaldaemon.com...
> Here's a simple example:
>
> http://limpid.nl/lab/css/fixed/left-sidebar

That looks _very_ good.  I'd really like that.

Hi,

Walter says...
>"AJG" <AJG@nospam.com> wrote in message
>news:dedsd4$1jig$1@digitaldaemon.com...
>> What do you think?
>
>The problem is it will break existing links to those pages.

Ah. But is this really a big concern? Specially given that _with_ the frames, bookmarks didn't work properly.

If this is really a problem, there is still a fairly simple solution:
First, copy pages to their new, canonical locations.

Second, in the old pages, nuke the content and simply leave a stub which should contain 2 things:

1) A tag to make the search engines forget it.
<meta name="robots" content="noindex,nofollow,noarchive">

This way searching the way I previously described would still work.

2) A redirect to the actual page.

This way there's no need for duplicate content and it avoids staleness.

Eventually, these stubs can be removed as people update their links.

Thoughts?

I think harnessing google is the best option. They specialize in searching and indexing web pages, and they know what they're doing. Why not put that to good use?

Cheers,
--AJG.

AJG wrote:
> Hi,
[snip]
> please consider using the official solution, which is CSS.
> 
> Here's a simple example:
> 
> http://limpid.nl/lab/css/fixed/left-sidebar
> 
> Variations, including headers/footers, left and right, etc. can be found here:
> 
> http://annevankesteren.nl/2004/07/fixed-positioning
> 
> Enjoy,
> --AJG.

That's brilliant!!

Walter wrote:
> "Jarrett Billingsley" <kb3ctd2@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:ded3u7$hkf$1@digitaldaemon.com...
> 
>>Awful.  Not only does it look like a beginner HTML coder made the site,
> 
> 
> No surprise there, I am a beginner html coder <g>.
> 
> 
>>it's also a pain to navigate.  I miss the frames.
> 
> 
> The problem with frames is that no other web sites use them for navigation,

Sun's JDK online documentation uses frames;
Microsoft's MSDN documentation uses frames;
...and many more.

> and too many people think it makes the website look clumsy and
> old-fashioned. One blind user wrote me that frames made it very difficult
> for him to navigate.
> 
> The last problem with frames is if you wind up at the page directly from,
> say, a search engine, one loses all the navigation.
> 
> Are the navigation problems you're experiencing with it something that is
> fixable without using frames?
> 
> 

Derek Parnell wrote:
> On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 08:30:56 +1200, Regan Heath wrote:
> 
> 
> [snip]
>  
> 
>>Yes.. except.. the original problem that 'frames' solve, if badly,  remains.
> 
> 
> [snip]
> 
> 
>>So, while I agree: "frames are not the solution" where does that leave  you? Do you simply ensure your users never need to scroll your pages? do  you add a floating menu? (hell no, IMO) what is the solution?
> 
> 
> How about having smaller pages. Just limit a page to some context info at
> the top and one topic/aspect in the main body with the frame-less
> navigation info at the side. In other words, if scrolling is an issue,
> lessen the need to scroll.
> 

Here comes another problem: visitors have to click more links than necessary.

Hi,

zwang wrote:
> Walter wrote:
> 
>> "Jarrett Billingsley" <kb3ctd2@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:ded3u7$hkf$1@digitaldaemon.com...
>>
>>> Awful.  Not only does it look like a beginner HTML coder made the site,
>>
>>
>>
>> No surprise there, I am a beginner html coder <g>.
>>
>>
>>> it's also a pain to navigate.  I miss the frames.
>>
>>
>>
>> The problem with frames is that no other web sites use them for navigation,
> 
> 
> Sun's JDK online documentation uses frames;
> Microsoft's MSDN documentation uses frames;
> ...and many more.

I can't speak for the Sun site, but the MSDN navigation menu is a god-forsaken creature best banished to the pits of hell. It's slow, clumsy, overly complex, convoluted, deeply-nested, and is known to crash IE. Worst of all, it uses frames, which are downright sinful by themselves. Avoid such design at _all_ costs.

That's not to say the _content_ of MSDN is bad. In fact, not at all. It's navigation menu that is its Achille's Heel.

Anyway, if you want an example of a superbly useful nav menu, take a look at the ubiquituous IMDB:

http://imdb.com/title/tt0060666/combined

The PHP sites are also very nice in terms of navigation and search.

> 
>> and too many people think it makes the website look clumsy and
>> old-fashioned. One blind user wrote me that frames made it very difficult
>> for him to navigate.
>>
>> The last problem with frames is if you wind up at the page directly from,
>> say, a search engine, one loses all the navigation.
>>
>> Are the navigation problems you're experiencing with it something that is
>> fixable without using frames?

Cheers,
--AJG.

"Walter" <newshound@digitalmars.com> wrote in message news:dee1ij$1pi2$1@digitaldaemon.com...
>
> "AJG" <AJG@nospam.com> wrote in message news:deduje$1mca$1@digitaldaemon.com...
> > Having said that, before some ungodly javascript floating hack is introduced to create the effect of a fixed menu, please consider using the official solution, which is CSS.
> >
> > Here's a simple example:
> >
> > http://limpid.nl/lab/css/fixed/left-sidebar
> >
> > Variations, including headers/footers, left and right, etc. can be found here:
> >
> > http://annevankesteren.nl/2004/07/fixed-positioning
>
> That looks pretty good.

Oh darn, there is a problem with it - if the left-sidebar is taller than the screen. It can't be scrolled!