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January 06, 2007
Re: D, Java? To D or not to D?
Daniel Keep wrote:
> Frits van Bommel wrote:
>> I don't think there's currently any way to have it run directly on 
>> Windows and Linux simply because there's AFAIK no executable format 
>> that's supported by both OSs (ELF is supported on multiple OSs, but 
>> Windows doesn't support it). Furthermore, all executable formats I 
>> know of (except for plain binary, which AFAIK Linux doesn't 
>> support[1]) have some (unique) signature in the first few bytes, so a 
>> file can't be multiple of these formats at the same time.
>>
>> So you'd need to either using some sort of custom loader binary for 
>> each OS or modify OSs to support a common binary format (i.e. a custom 
>> loader, but integrated into the OS).
>>
>>
>> [1]: Windows "supports" these for programs that fit in 64k: .com files 
>> are plain binaries. They're not really useful for anything but 
>> backwards compatibility though.
> 
> Linux can support PEs (ie: .exe files); that's what Wine is for.

Read the first sentence that you quoted again. run _directly_. As in: 
you can type the name of the app at the prompt and it runs (without a 
batch file, script or loader application in between) as long as it's in 
the PATH variable.

> If Windows won't support it, you have to change everything else :3

Yeah, that's technically an option. But I don't think asking people to 
upgrade their kernel to run my apps is a very nice thing to do, unless 
absolutely necessary (i.e. "it actually uses a new syscall in the 
kernel" or "kernels before x.y.z have a bug that breaks this app", not 
"I used this cool new executable format").
Not to mention the difficulty you'd have in getting the Linux, BSD and 
Mac kernel hackers to ship all ship a patch to be able to load a Windows 
executable format...
January 06, 2007
Re: D, Java? To D or not to D?
Frits van Bommel wrote:
> to ship all ship a patch

Hmmm... Would that be an edit-o?
(Obviously, ignore the first 'ship')
January 06, 2007
Re: D, Java? To D or not to D?
Jeff Nowakowski wrote:
> Walter Bright wrote:
>> It's just a fair project to get it to work. I don't see any technical 
>> obstacles, just resources. I worked out all the details about 5 years 
>> ago <g>.
> 
> Is that like "I have a truly marvelous proof of this proposition which 
> this margin is too narrow to contain."?

I haven't written about it because part of the idea is another fellow's, 
and he wanted to keep it under wraps.
January 07, 2007
Re: D, Java? To D or not to D?
Leandro Lucarella wrote:
> Walter Bright escribió:
>> Waldemar wrote:
>>> == Quote from Walter Bright (newshound@digitalmars.com)'s article
>>>> BCS wrote:
>>>>> D is alos ~7 years old, is at V1.00 and is being develuped by one man
>>>>> with gobs of user input and AFAIN not a lot of funding. It is 
>>>>> useful for
>>>>> practically anything.
>>>> D's funding: $0
>>>> D's paid staff: 0
>>>> D's marketing budget: $0
>>>> <g>
>>>
>>> How did Guido do it?
>>
>> I don't know (I don't know anything about the history of Python).
> 
> Python was a good language, I took more than 10 years (or more) to 
> spread out because of the lack of marketing (and the lack of internet 
> popularity, not so many people had an internet connection back then). 
> Same for Ruby (it's from 1995 but I'm sure you hear about it a couple of 
> years ago because of RoR). It only took time, I guess.
> 

Hum, interesting, I didn't know those languages (Ruby and Python) had 
that age, they were older than I thought. If we extrapolate that 10 
years maturing time to D, then D will hit mainstream in about 3 years. I 
would say its a sound prediction to make,  let's see how it turns out.


-- 
Bruno Medeiros - MSc in CS/E student
http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?BrunoMedeiros#D
January 07, 2007
Re: D, Java? To D or not to D?
Don Clugston wrote:
> TPJ wrote:
>> I decided to start with a simple statement: with this post I don't 
>> intend to
>> start any flamewar. I'm definitely not a Java zealot, OS zealot, I'm 
>> not a
>> zealot at all. I'm just a programmer who seeks for future technologies 
>> today.
>> I'm doing it because I find investing in future technologies today very
>> profitable. Of course only in case of really good technologies...
>>
>> I'm a freelancer programmer. I work under a GNU/Linux box and I'm 
>> interested
>> in development of portable desktop apps (*nices, Windows, MacOSX, perhaps
>> other OSes in the future) and games (the same OSes, plus mobile phones).
>>
>> A few years ago I switched from C/C++ to Python. The reason was 
>> simple: I was
>> fed up with low-level development in C/C++, and I was impressed by 
>> high-level
>> development in Python. All I did in C/C++ could be done in Python with 
>> one
>> significant difference: code was written much, much faster.
>>
>> Now, after several years of using Python, I decided to switch from 
>> Python to
>> Java. The reason is simple. Sometimes Python is too slow for my needs. Of
>> course, I can use C in those cases. But using C means using another 
>> language
>> and development becomes more complicated. In fact, I started to use 
>> Pyrex as
>> well... Three different tools, no documentation standard for all of 
>> them...
>> The hell.
> 
> [snip]
>> So I ask myself a question today: should I invest in learning D? Is it 
>> worth
>> my efforts?
> 
> It's the libraries.
> The thing C# really has going for it is the .NET libraries. Likewise 
> Java. Their libraries are extensive, and were developed with massive 
> budgets.
> Right now, D cannot compete with those libraries. We got nothin'.
> 

I would say that the toolchain (like the IDEs) also plays a big factor 
for Java and C#, not just the libraries. Especially for C#, where the 
Visual Studio GUI designer has allways been a great boon for .NET 
languages.

-- 
Bruno Medeiros - MSc in CS/E student
http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?BrunoMedeiros#D
January 07, 2007
Re: D, Java? To D or not to D?
Frits van Bommel wrote:
> Daniel Keep wrote:
>> Linux can support PEs (ie: .exe files); that's what Wine is for.
> 
> Read the first sentence that you quoted again. run _directly_. As in: 
> you can type the name of the app at the prompt and it runs (without a 
> batch file, script or loader application in between) as long as it's in 
> the PATH variable.

I thought you *could* do that.  I remember reading an article somewhere 
on how the list of executable formats in Linux was open-ended, and you 
could add new stuff to it.

Maybe I'm just getting senile really, really early...

Ah, here's something: http://www.linux.it/~rubini/docs/binfmt/binfmt.html

I must have assumed that Wine added this functionality for Windows 
executables.  Silly me.

	-- Daniel
January 07, 2007
Re: D, Java? To D or not to D?
Daniel Keep wrote:
> Frits van Bommel wrote:
>> Daniel Keep wrote:
>>> Linux can support PEs (ie: .exe files); that's what Wine is for.
>>
>> Read the first sentence that you quoted again. run _directly_. As in: 
>> you can type the name of the app at the prompt and it runs (without a 
>> batch file, script or loader application in between) as long as it's 
>> in the PATH variable.
> 
> I thought you *could* do that.  I remember reading an article somewhere 
> on how the list of executable formats in Linux was open-ended, and you 
> could add new stuff to it.
> 
> Maybe I'm just getting senile really, really early...
> 
> Ah, here's something: http://www.linux.it/~rubini/docs/binfmt/binfmt.html
> 
> I must have assumed that Wine added this functionality for Windows 
> executables.  Silly me.

Well, I'm not that sure either, since it's been a while since I used 
Wine. But when I last used it, you had to run something like "wine 
program.exe" IIRC...
January 08, 2007
Re: D, Java? To D or not to D?
Frits van Bommel wrote:

> Daniel Keep wrote:
>> Frits van Bommel wrote:
>>> Daniel Keep wrote:
>>>> Linux can support PEs (ie: .exe files); that's what Wine is for.
>>>
>>> Read the first sentence that you quoted again. run _directly_. As in:
>>> you can type the name of the app at the prompt and it runs (without a
>>> batch file, script or loader application in between) as long as it's
>>> in the PATH variable.
>> 
>> I thought you *could* do that.  I remember reading an article somewhere
>> on how the list of executable formats in Linux was open-ended, and you
>> could add new stuff to it.
>> 
>> Maybe I'm just getting senile really, really early...
>> 
>> Ah, here's something: http://www.linux.it/~rubini/docs/binfmt/binfmt.html
>> 
>> I must have assumed that Wine added this functionality for Windows
>> executables.  Silly me.
> 
> Well, I'm not that sure either, since it's been a while since I used
> Wine. But when I last used it, you had to run something like "wine
> program.exe" IIRC...

If i remember correctly both works but sometimes wine foo.exe is needed
because the program has the wrong permissions. (was sometime since I last
used wine so I might be mistaken)
January 08, 2007
Re: Native apps on Vista (was Re: D, Java? To D or not to D?)
Guest wrote:
> Carlos Santander Wrote:
> 
>> Guest escribió:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Only real reason to use C# is for Win Vista apps since native apps run in a
>>> very suspicious box.
>>>
>> Would you care to explain that, please? I haven't used Vista so I don't know 
>> what you're talking about.
>>
>> -- 
>> Carlos Santander Bernal
> 
> I'm sorry for my long reply time.  I've read a couple of articles on running native apps in Vista and they have all said that it will be ran in a box that supplies imense security features to protect the user.  It will abort the app as soon as it starts looking suspicious.  That's the box I'm talking about.  So really you should use a .NET language on Vista because the .NET already has the security and won't be ran in a box.  I've also read the box will severely limit your programs access to resources (such as: files,hardware,etc.).

I find that a bit hard to believe. Consider what fraction of high-end 
PCs are used for games, which are almost exclusively native apps. 
Microsoft cannot afford to alienate that market.

> I wish I wrote the url's down of those web pages so I could directly link them to you and when I start reading up on vista again.  I will re reply with a list of url's you may visit.
> 
> Guest
>
January 09, 2007
Re: D, Java? To D or not to D?
Walter Bright wrote:
> Jeff Nowakowski wrote:
>> Walter Bright wrote:
>>> It's just a fair project to get it to work. I don't see any technical 
>>> obstacles, just resources. I worked out all the details about 5 years 
>>> ago <g>.
>>
>> Is that like "I have a truly marvelous proof of this proposition which 
>> this margin is too narrow to contain."?
> 
> I haven't written about it because part of the idea is another fellow's, 
> and he wanted to keep it under wraps.

/me head explodes

-- 
- EricAnderton at yahoo
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