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February 14, 2008
Totally OT: Quantum Mechanics proof for the existence of a Supreme Conciousness?
I apologize for the inappropriate post, but I read this material last night 
and am still buzzing about it.  I just have to share it.  I personally am an 
agnostic, so not trying to preach anything, but I thought this was very 
interesting.  I didn't realize that modern science has such a solid theory 
about consciousness.  Namely, that there is only one conscious mind in the 
universe, and that matter is the result of observations of that mind.  At 
the subatomic level, there are only possibilities that require a mind to 
bring into actual reality.  And that mind is not Many but One.  The universe 
essentially consists of a single Indivisible Mind from which matter 
emmanates.

Are these the ramblings of a deluded philosopher or religious cult?  Nope. 
The conclusions that result due to observations and discoveries made by 
Werner Heisenberg, Erwin Schrödinger, and Niels Bohr, all pioneers of 
quantum mechanics.

http://www.integralscience.org/ConsciousQM.html

-Craig
February 14, 2008
Re: Totally OT: Quantum Mechanics proof for the existence of a Supreme Conciousness?
Craig Black wrote:
> I apologize for the inappropriate post, but I read this material last night 
> and am still buzzing about it.  I just have to share it.  I personally am an 
> agnostic, so not trying to preach anything, but I thought this was very 
> interesting.  I didn't realize that modern science has such a solid theory 
> about consciousness.  Namely, that there is only one conscious mind in the 
> universe, and that matter is the result of observations of that mind.  At 
> the subatomic level, there are only possibilities that require a mind to 
> bring into actual reality.  And that mind is not Many but One.  The universe 
> essentially consists of a single Indivisible Mind from which matter 
> emmanates.
> 
> Are these the ramblings of a deluded philosopher or religious cult?  Nope. 
> The conclusions that result due to observations and discoveries made by 
> Werner Heisenberg, Erwin Schrödinger, and Niels Bohr, all pioneers of 
> quantum mechanics.

... and then re-interpreted by a deluded philosopher / religious cult.

> http://www.integralscience.org/ConsciousQM.html


Sorry, couldn't resist.  :-)


I really enjoyed the book "The Dancing Wu Li Masters" when I read it 10 
years ago or so.  I think there are a number of books of the same ilk 
that try to tie quantum mechanics to things like consciousness or 
mysticism.  It's interesting but from what I've seen there isn't 
anything like a "solid theory of consciousness" that's got any 
scientific rigor to it.   But my data is about 10 years old.  Things do 
change.

--bb
February 14, 2008
Re: Totally OT: Quantum Mechanics proof for the existence of a Supreme Conciousness?
"Bill Baxter" <dnewsgroup@billbaxter.com> wrote in message 
news:fp1s4l$28uh$1@digitalmars.com...
> Craig Black wrote:
>> I apologize for the inappropriate post, but I read this material last 
>> night and am still buzzing about it.  I just have to share it.  I 
>> personally am an agnostic, so not trying to preach anything, but I 
>> thought this was very interesting.  I didn't realize that modern science 
>> has such a solid theory about consciousness.  Namely, that there is only 
>> one conscious mind in the universe, and that matter is the result of 
>> observations of that mind.  At the subatomic level, there are only 
>> possibilities that require a mind to bring into actual reality.  And that 
>> mind is not Many but One.  The universe essentially consists of a single 
>> Indivisible Mind from which matter emmanates.
>>
>> Are these the ramblings of a deluded philosopher or religious cult? 
>> Nope. The conclusions that result due to observations and discoveries 
>> made by Werner Heisenberg, Erwin Schrödinger, and Niels Bohr, all 
>> pioneers of quantum mechanics.
>
> ... and then re-interpreted by a deluded philosopher / religious cult.
>
>> http://www.integralscience.org/ConsciousQM.html
>
>
> Sorry, couldn't resist.  :-)
>
>
> I really enjoyed the book "The Dancing Wu Li Masters" when I read it 10 
> years ago or so.  I think there are a number of books of the same ilk that 
> try to tie quantum mechanics to things like consciousness or mysticism. 
> It's interesting but from what I've seen there isn't anything like a 
> "solid theory of consciousness" that's got any scientific rigor to it. 
> But my data is about 10 years old.  Things do change.
>
> --bb

I would like to hear more about your perspective on this matter.  It is all 
very new to me.  And like I said I am completely agnostic. I have heard that 
Schrodinger stated that, "The number of minds in the universe is One."  What 
is your take on this?

-Craig
February 14, 2008
Re: Totally OT: Quantum Mechanics proof for the existence of a Supreme Conciousness?
Craig Black wrote:
> I apologize for the inappropriate post, but I read this material last night 
> and am still buzzing about it.  I just have to share it.  I personally am an 
> agnostic, so not trying to preach anything, but I thought this was very 
> interesting.  I didn't realize that modern science has such a solid theory 
> about consciousness.  Namely, that there is only one conscious mind in the 
> universe, and that matter is the result of observations of that mind.  At 
> the subatomic level, there are only possibilities that require a mind to 
> bring into actual reality.  And that mind is not Many but One.  The universe 
> essentially consists of a single Indivisible Mind from which matter 
> emmanates.
> 
> Are these the ramblings of a deluded philosopher or religious cult?  Nope. 
> The conclusions that result due to observations and discoveries made by 
> Werner Heisenberg, Erwin Schrödinger, and Niels Bohr, all pioneers of 
> quantum mechanics.
> 
> http://www.integralscience.org/ConsciousQM.html
> 
> -Craig
> 
> 

I have not read the link but I did read a short story a week or so ago 
about someone playing the Schrödinger's cat trick with a super plague 
and all of humanity. The punch line is that everyone involved decides 
that if all knowledge about the experiment is destroyed that the world 
would be saved. So they kill each other.

This should remarkably like the "watching dark matter can shorten the 
life of the universe" buzz from a few months back.
February 14, 2008
Re: Totally OT: Quantum Mechanics proof for the existence of a Supreme Conciousness?
Craig Black:
> What is your take on this?

I suggest you to a library and fetch a book by Antonio Damasio or Gerald Edelman, and later you can read some university manual about neurobiology, so you can start learning something real about such matters.
You will find that while the global problem isn't solved yet, there are many things we already know about the underling subsystems.

Bye,
bearophile
February 14, 2008
Re: Totally OT: Quantum Mechanics proof for the existence of a Supreme Conciousness?
"BCS" <BCS@pathlink.com> wrote in message 
news:fp206p$5sv$1@digitalmars.com...
> Craig Black wrote:
>> I apologize for the inappropriate post, but I read this material last 
>> night and am still buzzing about it.  I just have to share it.  I 
>> personally am an agnostic, so not trying to preach anything, but I 
>> thought this was very interesting.  I didn't realize that modern science 
>> has such a solid theory about consciousness.  Namely, that there is only 
>> one conscious mind in the universe, and that matter is the result of 
>> observations of that mind.  At the subatomic level, there are only 
>> possibilities that require a mind to bring into actual reality.  And that 
>> mind is not Many but One.  The universe essentially consists of a single 
>> Indivisible Mind from which matter emmanates.
>>
>> Are these the ramblings of a deluded philosopher or religious cult? 
>> Nope. The conclusions that result due to observations and discoveries 
>> made by Werner Heisenberg, Erwin Schrödinger, and Niels Bohr, all 
>> pioneers of quantum mechanics.
>>
>> http://www.integralscience.org/ConsciousQM.html
>>
>> -Craig
>>
>>
>
> I have not read the link but I did read a short story a week or so ago 
> about someone playing the Schrödinger's cat trick with a super plague and 
> all of humanity. The punch line is that everyone involved decides that if 
> all knowledge about the experiment is destroyed that the world would be 
> saved. So they kill each other.
>
> This should remarkably like the "watching dark matter can shorten the life 
> of the universe" buzz from a few months back.

lol!  I know it's easy to moc an idea that is so far removed from our every 
day experience.  However, it would be nice to hear a skeptic that has an 
cohesive intelligent counterargument to one or more of the ideas presented. 
These observations do not seem to me to pulled out of thin air.  However, I 
should try to dissect them further to check for inconsistencies.

-Craig
February 14, 2008
Re: Totally OT: Quantum Mechanics proof for the existence of a Supreme Conciousness?
"bearophile" <bearophileHUGS@lycos.com> wrote in message 
news:fp22l8$2pvm$1@digitalmars.com...
> Craig Black:
>> What is your take on this?
>
> I suggest you to a library and fetch a book by Antonio Damasio or Gerald 
> Edelman, and later you can read some university manual about neurobiology, 
> so you can start learning something real about such matters.
> You will find that while the global problem isn't solved yet, there are 
> many things we already know about the underling subsystems.
>
> Bye,
> bearophile

The fact that there are correlations between neurons firing and 
consciousness is a profound observation.  However, it doesn't really address 
the ideas presented, unless I am missing something.  Furthermore, the 
assumption that the configuration of matter known as the brain is the cause 
of consciousness may be fundamentally flawed if the ideas presented in this 
link are correct.  You may be completely right about your assertion that 
"the global problem isn't solved yet".  However, that assertion by itself is 
not very convincing, at least to me.
February 14, 2008
Re: Totally OT: Quantum Mechanics proof for the existence of a Supreme Conciousness?
It seems to me that quantum physics is just an admittance that we don't  
really know what the heck is going on. It's not science, it's philosophy.  
And the thing about the mind sounds a lot like the main principle of the  
philosopher Descartes: 'there's only one thing that I can be sure about: I  
think, therefore I exist'

This isn't proof of the existence of anything. In fact, it's more a theory  
that nothing can truly be proven. Any proof is based on what we can  
observe, but we can't be sure that anything we observe actually is.

Greetz,
Boyd.

----
On Thu, 14 Feb 2008 17:47:27 +0100, Craig Black <cblack@ara.com> wrote:

> I apologize for the inappropriate post, but I read this material last  
> night
> and am still buzzing about it.  I just have to share it.  I personally  
> am an
> agnostic, so not trying to preach anything, but I thought this was very
> interesting.  I didn't realize that modern science has such a solid  
> theory
> about consciousness.  Namely, that there is only one conscious mind in  
> the
> universe, and that matter is the result of observations of that mind.  At
> the subatomic level, there are only possibilities that require a mind to
> bring into actual reality.  And that mind is not Many but One.  The  
> universe
> essentially consists of a single Indivisible Mind from which matter
> emmanates.
>
> Are these the ramblings of a deluded philosopher or religious cult?   
> Nope.
> The conclusions that result due to observations and discoveries made by
> Werner Heisenberg, Erwin Schrödinger, and Niels Bohr, all pioneers of
> quantum mechanics.
>
> http://www.integralscience.org/ConsciousQM.html
>
> -Craig
February 14, 2008
Re: Totally OT: Quantum Mechanics proof for the existence of a Supreme Conciousness?
I haven't read the link but my view on such issues (as an atheist)  is
as follows:
science deals only with certain questions, namely ones he can find an
answer to, other questions are just left to philosophy.
from your description that links falls under the realm of the latter
more than the former.
the Schrödinger cat experiment for example is a way to illustrate
Heisenberg's uncertainty law. It's a way to explain statistics.
science uses math as a language to express concepts, for example we use
fields to explain magnetism but that does not mean that there's such a
thing as a magnetic field, cause a field is just another mathematical
entity, nothing more.
trying to extract any philosophical ideas out of those ideas and math
concepts is wrong as it violates Okham's razor principal and is not science.
As I've stated already, those are my views only, and I of course do not
want to insult anyone's beliefs. I just prefer the science continue
expanding our understanding of the universe while our philosophy
continues to debate other questions and those remain separated.

--Yigal

PS - http://digg.com/comedy/Atheist_Sees_Image_of_Big_Bang_in_Piece_of_Toast



Craig Black wrote:
> I apologize for the inappropriate post, but I read this material last night 
> and am still buzzing about it.  I just have to share it.  I personally am an 
> agnostic, so not trying to preach anything, but I thought this was very 
> interesting.  I didn't realize that modern science has such a solid theory 
> about consciousness.  Namely, that there is only one conscious mind in the 
> universe, and that matter is the result of observations of that mind.  At 
> the subatomic level, there are only possibilities that require a mind to 
> bring into actual reality.  And that mind is not Many but One.  The universe 
> essentially consists of a single Indivisible Mind from which matter 
> emmanates.
>
> Are these the ramblings of a deluded philosopher or religious cult?  Nope. 
> The conclusions that result due to observations and discoveries made by 
> Werner Heisenberg, Erwin Schrödinger, and Niels Bohr, all pioneers of 
> quantum mechanics.
>
> http://www.integralscience.org/ConsciousQM.html
>
> -Craig
>
>
>
February 14, 2008
Re: Totally OT: Quantum Mechanics proof for the existence of a Supreme Conciousness?
Craig Black:
> The fact that there are correlations between neurons firing and
> consciousness is a profound observation.

It was profound 200-300 years ago, today it's well known, like many other things in science.


> However, it doesn't really address the ideas presented, unless I am missing something.

You are probably missing some things, that's why reading a big university manual about neurobiology may help you.


> Furthermore, the 
> assumption that the configuration of matter known as the brain is the cause 
> of consciousness may be fundamentally flawed

A very important part is the configuration of the activation patterns too, that the dynamic state too, it includes the electrical fields of the many charges that create that chemistry dance too.
I think you are making the phenomenon of consciousness more mysterious and strange than necessary. Learning more about nematode and aplysia nervous systems may help you see that the situation is quite more mundane, despite being really complex anyway.
In the end quantum mechanics may have some role in animal brains (but I know no concrete facts about this has being found so far), but surely that's not the most important layer of the reality you have to look at if you want to understand how a living brain works (like a grizzly brain). You have to learn about signal processing, neural dynamics, neural groups, neural networks, neurology, neurobiology, linguistics, sociology... :-)

Bye,
bearophile
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