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April 21, 2012
Re: [off-topic] Sony releases PS Vita SDK
On 21-04-2012 09:18, Nick Sabalausky wrote:
> "Paulo Pinto"<pjmlp@progtools.org>  wrote in message
> news:pgxiucaflhldzhfmgipl@forum.dlang.org...
>> Just noticed that Microsoft is planning to start using C# for systems
>> programming as well
>>
>> https://careers.microsoft.com/jobdetails.aspx?jid=76831
>>
>> Who knows what they are planning to do...
>>
>
> Between that and turning JS into desktop language for Win8, isn't their plan
> obvious? They plan to increase bloat!
>
> The optimizations in Win7 were just an accidental result of an email glitch
> that blocked communication between the managers and developers. They aim to
> rectify that oversight as...efficiently...as possible: Hence, VM for systems
> work and JS for apps.
>
> The only reason they didn't go with JS as their new systems language is
> because that requires more work, so it's delayed until Win9.
>
> ....Either that or their HR drones screwed up the job posting, which based on
> my experience with HR people seems entirely plausible. They probably got
> confused by all the many, many "buttons" on their keyboards.
>
>

Er, that job posting did say "native *ahead-of-time*" compilers. I.e. no VM.

-- 
- Alex
April 21, 2012
Re: [off-topic] Sony releases PS Vita SDK
On Friday, 20 April 2012 at 18:11:45 UTC, SomeDude wrote:
>
> Through the Java Community Process (http://jcp.org). Basically, 
> it's where the proposals for APIs are reviewed. It started 
> after many people found that the Sun APIs sucked (basically, 
> Sun didn't have the manpower to follow all the requests of 
> their users) and founded the Apache and Spring projects to 
> compensate for some missing parts (the logging API for 
> instance).
> Afterwards, key developers of those open source projects became 
> active part of the JCP, and companies followed.
>
Rereading this paragraph, I find this is somewhat inaccurate. Sun 
AFAIK has nothing to do with Apache and Spring, and the JCP 
started before these open source projects. What I wanted to 
stress though, was that many important and successful APIs have 
been developed after open source developments, and were designed 
by members of these communities (several of which were employed 
by big companies afterwards). An example being the "Enterprise 
JavaBeans", which were enterprise crap when designed by Sun (EJB1 
and EJB2), and they finally got it right after the lead developer 
of the Hibernate project came onboard.
April 21, 2012
Re: [off-topic] Sony releases PS Vita SDK
On Friday, 20 April 2012 at 12:30:19 UTC, SomeDude wrote:

> What I don't get is why no large software company is backing up 
> D right now. It's quite clear by now that D is by far the 
> language that has the best feature set to be the successor to 
> C++.

Answer is i think quite simple. How many C++ developers do you 
think use templates more than like "<T>min(Ta){ reuturn a<b?a:b 
}"? I don't believe it is more than 5%. We first need to show how 
powerfull and accessible templates/ctfe in D. We need to stop 
saying "D does templates better than C++". This is huge 
underestimation. By stating it this way we are just targetting 
like 1% of the C++ audience. We need to teach people how to do 
templates. Starting with Boost community. If D can't absorb Boost 
community. There is no hope in neither D nor Boost, we should 
just stop!

> If IBM for example was helping D like they did for eclipse, the 
> traction would be huge and the toolchain would stabilize so 
> much faster. :(
April 21, 2012
Re: [off-topic] Sony releases PS Vita SDK
"Alex Rønne Petersen" <xtzgzorex@gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:jmtolu$1e25$1@digitalmars.com...
> On 21-04-2012 09:18, Nick Sabalausky wrote:
>> "Paulo Pinto"<pjmlp@progtools.org>  wrote in message
>> news:pgxiucaflhldzhfmgipl@forum.dlang.org...
>>> Just noticed that Microsoft is planning to start using C# for systems
>>> programming as well
>>>
>>> https://careers.microsoft.com/jobdetails.aspx?jid=76831
>>>
>>> Who knows what they are planning to do...
>>>
>>
>> Between that and turning JS into desktop language for Win8, isn't their 
>> plan
>> obvious? They plan to increase bloat!
>>
>> The optimizations in Win7 were just an accidental result of an email 
>> glitch
>> that blocked communication between the managers and developers. They aim 
>> to
>> rectify that oversight as...efficiently...as possible: Hence, VM for 
>> systems
>> work and JS for apps.
>>
>> The only reason they didn't go with JS as their new systems language is
>> because that requires more work, so it's delayed until Win9.
>>
>> ....Either that or their HR drones screwed up the job posting, which 
>> based on
>> my experience with HR people seems entirely plausible. They probably got
>> confused by all the many, many "buttons" on their keyboards.
>>
>>
>
> Er, that job posting did say "native *ahead-of-time*" compilers. I.e. no 
> VM.
>

Meh, so much for my stupid joke then... :(
April 21, 2012
Re: [off-topic] Sony releases PS Vita SDK
That is usually one of the arguments Go people use against 
generics.

I tend to call C++, D, C#, Ada and other languages with powerful
abstraction mechanisms as programming languages for people with
brains.

On my huge entreprise projects, I always despair with the
amount of knowledge some developers have.

Every time I see certain types of enterprise code, I cannot
even imagine how those developers would write in C, just to
give an example.

Me I prefer to use languages with proper expression mechanisms,
like D. Unfortunately the big guys prefer languages that allow
for replaceable programmers.

--
Paulo

On Saturday, 21 April 2012 at 08:49:15 UTC, so wrote:
> On Friday, 20 April 2012 at 12:30:19 UTC, SomeDude wrote:
>
>> What I don't get is why no large software company is backing 
>> up D right now. It's quite clear by now that D is by far the 
>> language that has the best feature set to be the successor to 
>> C++.
>
> Answer is i think quite simple. How many C++ developers do you 
> think use templates more than like "<T>min(Ta){ reuturn a<b?a:b 
> }"? I don't believe it is more than 5%. We first need to show 
> how powerfull and accessible templates/ctfe in D. We need to 
> stop saying "D does templates better than C++". This is huge 
> underestimation. By stating it this way we are just targetting 
> like 1% of the C++ audience. We need to teach people how to do 
> templates. Starting with Boost community. If D can't absorb 
> Boost community. There is no hope in neither D nor Boost, we 
> should just stop!
>
>> If IBM for example was helping D like they did for eclipse, 
>> the traction would be huge and the toolchain would stabilize 
>> so much faster. :(
April 21, 2012
Re: [off-topic] Sony releases PS Vita SDK
On Sat, Apr 21, 2012 at 06:34:40PM +0200, Paulo Pinto wrote:
> That is usually one of the arguments Go people use against generics.
> 
> I tend to call C++, D, C#, Ada and other languages with powerful
> abstraction mechanisms as programming languages for people with
> brains.
> 
> On my huge entreprise projects, I always despair with the amount of
> knowledge some developers have.

Thanks, now I can stop feeling like I'm the only one who feels that way
when I look at some ... shall I say, utterly atrocious code? ... in
enterprise projects at work.


> Every time I see certain types of enterprise code, I cannot even
> imagine how those developers would write in C, just to give an
> example.

You're lucky. I get to deal with _C code_ written by these kinds of
developers. Like recently when I reviewed some code to find that it was
using *string operations* for what should have been bitwise operations
(i.e., convert to string, do string ops, convert back). Or like some
time ago when we had to deal with a particular set of static tables that
had been copy-n-pasted EVERYWHERE, *and* reimplemented several times
over (incompletely and with gratuitously incompatible representations),
all mutually inconsistent but treated as though they were the same
table.

Just don't get me started on C++ code that had copy-n-pasted excerpts
from C code that broke in subtle ways because of language differences
that obviously the person who did it was completely oblivious to.


> Me I prefer to use languages with proper expression mechanisms, like
> D. Unfortunately the big guys prefer languages that allow for
> replaceable programmers.
[...]

Y'know, I'm starting to actually be glad that there's somewhere to send
those replaceable programmers instead of having them write more
horrendous C code than they already are. Send them to a Java shop,
problem solved. Reassign them to the PHP team and let them wreak havoc
there. Just keep them away from the mission-critical low-level code that
can't afford to break, no matter what.


T

-- 
Meat: euphemism for dead animal. -- Flora
April 21, 2012
Re: [off-topic] Sony releases PS Vita SDK
On Saturday, 21 April 2012 at 19:03:26 UTC, H. S. Teoh wrote:
> On Sat, Apr 21, 2012 at 06:34:40PM +0200, Paulo Pinto wrote:
>> Me I prefer to use languages with proper expression 
>> mechanisms, like
>> D. Unfortunately the big guys prefer languages that allow for
>> replaceable programmers.
> [...]
>
> Y'know, I'm starting to actually be glad that there's somewhere 
> to send
> those replaceable programmers instead of having them write more
> horrendous C code than they already are. Send them to a Java 
> shop,
> problem solved. Reassign them to the PHP team and let them 
> wreak havoc
> there. Just keep them away from the mission-critical low-level 
> code that
> can't afford to break, no matter what.
>
>
> T

One of the reasons I am planning to move away from JVM, .NET 
projects
back into native language world, is to get away of such 
developers.

But given your comment, I guess it might be in vain.
April 22, 2012
Re: [off-topic] Sony releases PS Vita SDK
On Thursday, 19 April 2012 at 18:21:30 UTC, Paulo Pinto wrote:
> Hi,
>
> just wanted to announce that Sony has finally made the new 
> Playstation
> Vita SDK available, as we were discussing some months ago.
>
> http://www.playstation.com/pss/index_e.html
>
> The gamming industry seems to be slowing moving to C#. Would we 
> still
> be able to convince developers to move to D instead?
>
> --
> Paulo


As a mobile game developer myself, this was one of my deepest 
dreams. I'm a silent D follower since it's beginnings, and did 
some game development back them (D2 didn't existed yet, though). 
You know, working with mobile game development is very hard, as 
there is this beast called multi-platforms. We started working 
with Java+Android, but the lack of performance and the need to 
port our games to iOS made us take a drastic move and port the 
engine to C++. This worked ok, but as an avid D guy, almost daily 
I stumble myself arguing with myself "Oh my god, this would be so 
clean/beautiful/simple if made with D".

So please folks, lets do something to the D-ARM backend. I'm not 
a compiler expert, but if someone volunteer to mention I'm 
disposed to learn how to do that as I would love to use D on a 
game engine. This is (at least to me) a point were D would shine 
so much (being able to integrate many platforms) that it's 
visibility could skyrocket to were it deserves.

Another option that crossed my mind was to do something like a 
kickstarter funding to pay someone to do that fulltime. What you 
guys think?
April 24, 2012
Re: [off-topic] Sony releases PS Vita SDK
On 04/22/2012 03:43 PM, Victor Vicente de Carvalho wrote:
>
> Another option that crossed my mind was to do something like a
> kickstarter funding to pay someone to do that fulltime. What you guys
> think?
>

I think "FUCK YES".  I would dump money on that. ;)
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