On Mon, 25 Oct 2010 19:38:13 +0100
>>>>>> "Russel" == Russel Winder wrote:

Russel> I guess what is needed is some form of email list for everyone Russel> who uses the mode to create the community with active amenders Russel> of the code being members of the management team.

OK. I agree, so I will restrain myself from joining and will wait for some email list to emerge.


Sincerely,
Gour

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Gour  | Hlapicina, Croatia  | GPG key: CDBF17CA
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On Mon, 25 Oct 2010 21:42:32 +0300, Russel Winder <russel@russel.org.uk> wrote:

> On Mon, 2010-10-25 at 10:20 -0700, Bill Baxter wrote:
>> I'm not a huge fan of Bazaar :-p ,
>
> Hummm... May I ask why?

Could someone please explain to me why is a VCS other than the three big ones (SVN, Git and HG) is worth using for an open-source project such as this?

I have never used Bazaar, DARCS and Monotone, and only briefly used HG, and I acknowledge that they may be better than Git in some aspects. However, IMHO, one of the main decisions for a VCS for a public project is its accessibility. SVN is the most popular one, but it's pretty established that SVN isn't anywhere as productive as DVCSes, and obviously it can't be used in a distributed manner.

If I'd consider contributing to an open-source project using a VCS I'm unfamiliar with, it's quite likely that I'd get turned off by the hurdle of downloading, installing and learning to use the respective VCS.

Russel wrote in another, unrelated thread:
> Of course using BitBucket or Launchpad may well be more likely to get
> support as Mercurial and Bazaar are so much more usable that Git.

I'm sorry, but to me that sounds like a biased personal opinion stated as if it was an objective fact :( I seriously doubt that any project would get more "support" if it used an obscure (albeit possibly better in some ways) DVCS, unless the intended audience for the project's contributors is already familiar with that DVCS. Maybe Bazaar etc. is more popular with EMACS users/hackers?

Also, I think that it's pretty hard to beat the workflow that GitHub facilitates for open-source projects (with one-click forking and pull requests).

-- 
Best regards,
 Vladimir                            mailto:vladimir@thecybershadow.net

On Wed, 27 Oct 2010 12:02:06 +0300
>>>>>> "Vladimir" == <vladimir@thecybershadow.net> wrote:

Vladimir> Could someone please explain to me why is a VCS other than Vladimir> the three big ones (SVN, Git and HG) is worth using for an Vladimir> open-source project such as this?

Maybe it's personal preference...I still find darcs' cherry-picking and it's UI incomparable to the rest.

Otoh, I consider that e.g. Monotone is much better designed than Git so will use it for my own project(s).

Vladimir> If I'd consider contributing to an open-source project using Vladimir> a VCS I'm unfamiliar with, it's quite likely that I'd get Vladimir> turned off by the hurdle of downloading, installing and Vladimir> learning to use the respective VCS.

I think that any capable developer can quickly grasp any of the
'standard' (bzr,hg,git,mtn) DVCS-es (darcs is a little bit different
considering it's patch-oriented) and can do:

dvcs init; dvcs pull; dvcs commit; dvcs push;

easily.

Vladimir> I'm sorry, but to me that sounds like a biased personal Vladimir> opinion stated as if it was an objective fact :( I seriously Vladimir> doubt that any project would get more "support" if it used an Vladimir> obscure (albeit possibly better in some ways) DVCS, unless Vladimir> the intended audience for the project's contributors is Vladimir> Maybe Bazaar etc. is more popular with EMACS users/hackers?

Emacs is stored in Bazaar repo.

Vladimir> Also, I think that it's pretty hard to beat the workflow that Vladimir> GitHub facilitates for open-source projects (with one-click Vladimir> forking and pull requests).

Can you explain more about this 'hard to beat workflow' which is not supported by other DVCS-es mentioned above?


Sincerely,
Gour

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Gour  | Hlapicina, Croatia  | GPG key: CDBF17CA
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On Wed, 27 Oct 2010 12:31:49 +0300, Gour <gour@atmarama.net> wrote:

> I think that any capable developer can quickly grasp any of the
> 'standard' (bzr,hg,git,mtn) DVCS-es (darcs is a little bit different
> considering it's patch-oriented) and can do:
> dvcs init; dvcs pull; dvcs commit; dvcs push;
> easily.

IIRC even those commands differ across these DVCSes. Anyway, when you want to do something non-trivial (branching/merging/history editing) you're forced to consult the documentation.

> Can you explain more about this 'hard to beat workflow' which is not
> supported by other DVCS-es mentioned above?

It's not really about Git, it's about GitHub:

1. Repo creation is instant, doesn't need to go through a human approval process, etc. (big turn-off from DSource, SourceForge as I create and work on many small projects)
2. One-click forking - self-explanatory, you get a cheap clone of a project in your own namespace, to which you can push to to instantly publish your changes.
3. Pull requests - pretty self-explanatory, but integrated with the issue system.
4. You've probably seen one of GitHub's "network chart"?
( e.g.: http://github.com/jquery/jquery/network )
You can instantly see activity of all of the project's forks on GitHub. This allows easily finding nice forks to merge / cherry-pick. If you're lazy, you don't even need to send your patches upstream - as long as you don't change the license, the project maintainers can cherry-pick from your fork as long as you push them to your fork. Personally, I think this feature is revolutionary, and quite "hard to beat" compared to the oldschool approach of mailing lists etc. ;)

GitHub has other nice things, such as line-level commit comments, as well as the usual things you'll find in many other open-source project hosters (issues, wiki, HTML project homepage).

And finally, IMHO a pretty convincing argument is that GitHub is one of the most popular open-source hosting websites. Not having to register and familiarize yourself with a project hosting website lowers the contribution barrier even lower.

-- 
Best regards,
 Vladimir                            mailto:vladimir@thecybershadow.net

On Wed, 27 Oct 2010 12:56:51 +0300
>>>>>> "Vladimir" == "Vladimir Panteleev" wrote:

Vladimir> IIRC even those commands differ across these DVCSes.

In some details, yes.

Vladimir> Anyway, when you want to do something non-trivial
Vladimir> (branching/merging/history editing) you're forced to consult
Vladimir> the documentation.

Sure. But all those are quite similar in nature...Besides that, there are plugins which enable, to some extent, interoperability. There are e.g. bzr-{hg,svn,git} plugins so one can stay using bzr with other DVCS-es as well.

Vladimir> It's not really about Git, it's about GitHub:

That's another thing and does not have much with Git itself.

Vladimir> 1. Repo creation is instant, doesn't need to go through a
Vladimir> human approval process, etc. (big turn-off from DSource,
Vladimir> SourceForge as I create and work on many small projects)
Vladimir> 2. One-click forking - self-explanatory, you get a cheap
Vladimir> clone of a project in your own namespace, to which you can
Vladimir> push to to instantly publish your changes.
Vladimir> 3. Pull requests - pretty self-explanatory, but integrated
Vladimir> with the issue system.
Vladimir> 4. You've probably seen one of GitHub's "network chart"?
Vladimir> ( e.g.: http://github.com/jquery/jquery/network )

I believe you didn't try much of the competition like Launchpad, Bitbucket, Gitorious etc.

What you are describing is neither very special nor specific to Github.

Vladimir> And finally, IMHO a pretty convincing argument is that GitHub Vladimir> is one of the most popular open-source hosting websites. Not Vladimir> having to register and familiarize yourself with a project Vladimir> hosting website lowers the contribution barrier even lower.

Try some of the above hosting solutions.

Btw, I'll probably use www.indefero.net as soon as the monotone
support gets in (probably next week).


Sincerely,
Gour

-- 

Gour  | Hlapicina, Croatia  | GPG key: CDBF17CA
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On Wed, 27 Oct 2010 13:58:56 +0300, Gour <gour@atmarama.net> wrote:


> I believe you didn't try much of the competition like Launchpad,
> Bitbucket, Gitorious etc.

You're right, I haven't used them for my own projects, but I did look at them briefly.

> What you are describing is neither very special nor specific to
> Github.

I must be blind - I just looked at all of the hosting solutions you mentioned, and this is what I saw:

Launchpad: Looking at https://launchpad.net/bzr I see absolutely no mention of branching/forking.
Bitbucket: http://bitbucket.org/tortoisehg/stable/descendants shows an unformatted, almost-unreadable list of forks.
Gitorious: http://qt.gitorious.org/qt/repositories takes forever to load, and when it does it shows a list of widgets for each fork, with no useful information except the name of the repository (usually username~"-"~projectname).

-- 
Best regards,
 Vladimir                            mailto:vladimir@thecybershadow.net

On Wed, 27 Oct 2010 14:36:47 +0300
>>>>>> "Vladimir" == <vladimir@thecybershadow.net> wrote:

Vladimir> Launchpad: Looking at https://launchpad.net/bzr I see Vladimir> absolutely no mention of branching/forking.

Try https://code.launchpad.net/bzr

Vladimir> Bitbucket: http://bitbucket.org/tortoisehg/stable/descendants Vladimir> shows an unformatted, almost-unreadable list of forks.

Well, it's question of bitbucket's interface, nothing about git.

Vladimir> Gitorious: http://qt.gitorious.org/qt/repositories takes Vladimir> forever to load, and when it does it shows a list of widgets Vladimir> for each fork, with no useful information except the name of Vladimir> the repository (usually username~"-"~projectname).

Ditto.

Otoh, when I have to choose DVCS, then I primarily look at its VCS features and not so much about features of the public hosting which is of secondary concern.

However, considering that there are no darcs solutions for public hosting, I've decided to use Monotone (with indefero.net) instead.

Still, github with it's non-beatable workflow is not enough to persuade me to use Git 'cause I'll work more with the DVCS than with it's hosting UI.


Sincerely,
Gour

-- 

Gour  | Hlapicina, Croatia  | GPG key: CDBF17CA
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On Wed, 27 Oct 2010 16:07:52 +0300, Gour <gour@atmarama.net> wrote:

> Try https://code.launchpad.net/bzr

Ah, that's quite nice.

> Well, it's question of bitbucket's interface, nothing about git.

And I wasn't talking about Git by itself.
If you look at http://whygitisbetterthanx.com/ , GitHub is listed as one of the major reasons.

> Otoh, when I have to choose DVCS, then I primarily look at its VCS
> features and not so much about features of the public hosting which is
> of secondary concern.
>
> However, considering that there are no darcs solutions for public
> hosting, I've decided to use Monotone (with indefero.net) instead.
>
> Still, github with it's non-beatable workflow is not enough to
> persuade me to use Git 'cause I'll work more with the DVCS than with
> it's hosting UI.

While I agree that it doesn't really matter what anyone uses for personal projects, I wouldn't choose anything non-mainstream for an open-source project where community involvement is important. For example, I think that moving DMD/Phobos/DRuntime from SVN to Bazaar/Monotone/DARCS would be a very bad idea (and I think that GitHub's featureset would fit D's community perfectly).

-- 
Best regards,
 Vladimir                            mailto:vladimir@thecybershadow.net

Gour, el 27 de octubre a las 11:31 me escribiste:
> On Wed, 27 Oct 2010 12:02:06 +0300
> >>>>>> "Vladimir" == <vladimir@thecybershadow.net> wrote:
> 
> Vladimir> Could someone please explain to me why is a VCS other than Vladimir> the three big ones (SVN, Git and HG) is worth using for an Vladimir> open-source project such as this?
> 
> Maybe it's personal preference...I still find darcs' cherry-picking and it's UI incomparable to the rest.

As an ex-darcs user, I sympathize, but Git now have all the cherry-picking capabilities of darcs, and makes darcs looks like a toy. Really. I recommend you to give it a try, give it some time.



-- 
Leandro Lucarella (AKA luca)                     http://llucax.com.ar/
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SEÑOR BIELSA: CON TODO RESPETO ¿USTED LO VE JUGAR A RIQUELME?
	-- Crónica TV

On Wed, 27 Oct 2010 17:25:35 +0300
>>>>>> "Vladimir" == <vladimir@thecybershadow.net> wrote:

Vladimir> While I agree that it doesn't really matter what anyone uses
Vladimir> for personal projects, I wouldn't choose anything
Vladimir> non-mainstream for an open-source project where community
Vladimir> involvement is important.

It really depends...Sqlite is one of the very successful open-source projects and you can check for yourself which VCS it uses. ;)


Sincerely,
Gour

-- 

Gour  | Hlapicina, Croatia  | GPG key: CDBF17CA
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