January 06, 2013
On Sat, 2013-01-05 at 12:57 -0500, Nick Sabalausky wrote: […]
> That is a fair point. OTOH, Google (by their very nature) is dead-set on things like making sure the web gets treated as an application platform and getting people to store their personal data on Google's private "cloud" (a moronic and unnecessary renaming of the works "hosted" and "internet", but that's a separate rant).

Interesting that Google are changing their terms of service so that (indirectly) Windows 8 RT users have to pay to access GAE.

[…]
> Also I think another part of what makes Google (and Apple) so dangerous
> is that unlike MS, most people are still hailing them as wonderful
> and benevolent companies.

The blinkered vision of Apple-heads is bizarre, but a great boon for Apple's bottom line.  Unlike Amazon, Starbucks, Google, and Microsoft, Apple appear to be getting away with anti-competition practices with equanimity.

-- 
Russel. ============================================================================= Dr Russel Winder      t: +44 20 7585 2200   voip: sip:russel.winder@ekiga.net 41 Buckmaster Road    m: +44 7770 465 077   xmpp: russel@winder.org.uk London SW11 1EN, UK   w: www.russel.org.uk  skype: russel_winder


January 06, 2013
On Sunday, 6 January 2013 at 04:19:53 UTC, Pierre Rouleau wrote:
>
> I know.
>
> What I'm trying to see is what is the development *plan* for D2? Something that would identify the future features to be implemented and the planned targets/milestones for them.
>
> I would assume that I am not alone in watching the D language evolution, would like to get people to start using it at my work place, and would like to know what the plan is be so we can better convince other people to invest time into it.
>
> /Pierre

IUP have a good road map: http://www.tecgraf.puc-rio.br/iup/. I really appreciate that because you can say "OK, in April they're gonna have that feature, good!"

I agree that it is about time D left the dark corner of "yeah I have heard of it, but don't know what it is". But it is hard to convince people of even looking at D, when other technologies are embraced and backed up by big companies with their huge PR networks.
January 06, 2013
On 2013-01-06 12:27, Russel Winder wrote:

> I know that the Go folk are of the view that shared libraries are an
> abomination and all should be expunged from the universe; all Go
> executables are statically linked.
>
> Of course Linux, OS X, Solaris and AIX depend on shared libraries, but
> maybe Google think they can change the world?

I'm pretty sure that they're linking with the dynamic libraries when linking with systems libraries. As you say, they don't have much of a choice.

I guess they don't create new dynamic libraries with Go.

> If D is to compete with C, C++ and JVM-based languages then it has to
> have a position on shared libraries other than "we think it might be a
> good idea, but no-one has bothered to do anything about it to date".
> Either is is a good idea or it isn't. If it is a good idea then shared
> libraries should be in 2.062. If it isn't then a clear statement of
> "won't fix" and "D is a static compile only language, like Go" is
> needed.

I completely agree. We _need_ dynamic libraries. But the problem is that someone just have to do it and Walter doesn't seem to be in a rush to implement it.

> Of course then the issue is "How to link to shared libraries?". Go has
> some difficulties here but the put a shim in place to deal with it.

What would be the issue of linking with dynamic libraries? We can already link with C dynamic libraries without any problem.

-- 
/Jacob Carlborg
January 06, 2013
On Sun, 2013-01-06 at 12:56 +0100, Jacob Carlborg wrote: […]
> I completely agree. We _need_ dynamic libraries. But the problem is that someone just have to do it and Walter doesn't seem to be in a rush to implement it.

Is Walter the only person who can implement this? I cannot commit to doing anything on this in the foreseeable short-, to medium-term future, but is there anyone who can?

> > Of course then the issue is "How to link to shared libraries?". Go has some difficulties here but the put a shim in place to deal with it.
> 
> What would be the issue of linking with dynamic libraries? We can already link with C dynamic libraries without any problem.

For the Go folks, it is all about issues with garbage collection and thread management, they need to perform contortions to deal with C and C ++ codes. I recollect it is to do with the way Go handles execution stacks.

-- 
Russel. ============================================================================= Dr Russel Winder      t: +44 20 7585 2200   voip: sip:russel.winder@ekiga.net 41 Buckmaster Road    m: +44 7770 465 077   xmpp: russel@winder.org.uk London SW11 1EN, UK   w: www.russel.org.uk  skype: russel_winder


January 06, 2013
On 2013-01-06 13:20, Russel Winder wrote:

> Is Walter the only person who can implement this? I cannot commit to
> doing anything on this in the foreseeable short-, to medium-term future,
> but is there anyone who can?

No, absolutely not. But no one has been willing to do it yet. Martin Nowak seems to be closest to have something:

https://github.com/dawgfoto/druntime/tree/SharedRuntime

I have tried myself a couple of times but there has always been some issue with the compiler that needs to be fixed or implemented. I have never been able to figure out how to do that. For example, on Mac OS X where DMD implements its own TLS the compiler will most likely need to change somewhat.

https://github.com/D-Programming-Language/druntime/blob/master/src/core/thread.d#L4549

In the above code we need to have access to which image that address (p) to the belongs to.

> For the Go folks, it is all about issues with garbage collection and
> thread management, they need to perform contortions to deal with C and C
> ++ codes. I recollect it is to do with the way Go handles execution
> stacks.

I see.

-- 
/Jacob Carlborg
January 06, 2013
On 13-01-06 6:08 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
> On 2013-01-06 05:19, Pierre Rouleau wrote:
>
>> I know.
>>
>> What I'm trying to see is what is the development *plan* for D2?
>> Something that would identify the future features to be implemented and
>> the planned targets/milestones for them.
>>
>> I would assume that I am not alone in watching the D language evolution,
>> would like to get people to start using it at my work place, and would
>> like to know what the plan is be so we can better convince other people
>> to invest time into it.
>
> I've requested that for years, still nothing. Well that only thing I've
> seen is that the change log used to say "Under Construction: Shared
> libraries for Linux". Still does for D1.
>
Is there a file somewhere that lists all requested features, under development features?  Or the various mailing lists the only source of information?

I cannot commit to much time but maybe I could start a discussion thread somewhere (here or in d.D?) to requests a list of features previously discussed, wanted, not implemented yet and after a while compile a list and save it somewhere.

Starting an activity that way may ease the implementation of a road-map.

/Pierre
January 06, 2013
On Sun, 06 Jan 2013 11:32:28 +0000
Russel Winder <russel@winder.org.uk> wrote:

> On Sat, 2013-01-05 at 12:57 -0500, Nick Sabalausky wrote: […]
> > Also I think another part of what makes Google (and Apple) so dangerous is that unlike MS, most people are still hailing them as wonderful and benevolent companies.
> 
> The blinkered vision of Apple-heads is bizarre, but a great boon for Apple's bottom line.  Unlike Amazon, Starbucks, Google, and Microsoft, Apple appear to be getting away with anti-competition practices with equanimity.
> 

Yea, I've noticed the same thing :( People are so enamored with their iDevices, that they think Apple can do no wrong. At least that's the only explanation I can think of.

Like browsers, for instance. When Microsoft had their browser merely
uninstallable and set as the *initial* default browser, the DOJ went
apeshit, nevermind the fact that MS did *nothing* to prevent people
from downloading and using competing browsers. Apple, OTOH, does the
same, except they also PROHIBIT competing browsers (only the "shell"
around the webview widget can be changed), and yet as long as Apple's
the one doing it nobody seems to mind. Apple's has been known
to do the same for other software besides browsers as well.

And then Jobs's personal grudge against Android (still
unfortunately being carried out in full by the new regime, puppeted
by a ghost apparently), in particular the irrational lawsuit against
Samsung where Apple is abusing software/design patents to go on the
offensive (not just using them defensively). The judge, even as an Apple
user, made it clear that Apple had basically no standing, and yet those
goddamn jururs irrationally ruled in favor of Apple anyway.

January 06, 2013
Walter Bright, el  4 de January a las 10:58 me escribiste:
> On 1/4/2013 6:02 AM, Leandro Lucarella wrote:
> >Walter Bright, el  3 de January a las 23:03 me escribiste:
> >>On 1/3/2013 9:49 PM, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
> >>>but other lines like
> >>>
> >>>$(LI std.string: $(RED The implementations of std.string.format and string.sformat have been replaced with improved implementations which conform to writef. In some, rare cases, this will break code. Please see the documentation for std.string.format and std.string.sformat for details.))
> >>
> >>Yes, you can put this in as the bugzilla title, though I'd tighten it up a little.
> >
> >Are you being serious? Do you really think this would be useful for the user?  That the user will be able to spot that particular comment among hundreds of bugs in a bugzilla search query result?
> 
> It's not hundreds. It's the new/changed list, which is rather short. It was a little longer this time because it's been several months. Usually, it's just a handful.

True, but sometimes bugfixes needs important news too, if some code use to compile when it shouldn't. What would you do with that? Add another bug and tag it as a enhancement? Makes no sense to me, is prostituting the tool and making the users go to a prostitute (no offense to prostitutes!).

Why settle with an option that's clearly worse for the users?

> >Is really that hard to acknowledge that release notes are better than doing that? I can understand if you see problems on keeping up to date the release notes, but I can't believe that anyone can think is plain better to user bugzilla instead (for the user POV at least).
> >
> >Can we at least agree on that and then see if is feasible to have good and up to date release notes?
> 
> But we've done that before. It was not working.

You are mixing everything together! What you did before is manually adding **all** the changes to the changelog. Again (and again, and again) I'm suggesting keep the automatic listings in bugzilla but adding release notes too, some more "high level" text explaining users the key changes in a new release.

But I guess we are arguing for no reason now because you already said that was OK. So now, my only request is for the reviewers to try to pay more attention to pull request and stop merging them until they also update the documentation and add release notes when appropriate. That should improve the situation a lot and doesn't generate a lot of new work, just more attention when reviewing and telling the contributor what's missing for the pull request to be merged. Then the work of writing the release notes is distributed among all the users.

> >I understand that, but I don't think that work should be optional and only done if somebody feels like. Every pull request should include proper documentation update. Can we try to focus on that for the next release?
> 
> We are all volunteers. You are welcome to help out with this.

I know that (and honestly, I think you know that I know). I already fix my incomplete pull request by updating the documentation and the "release notes". I try to help with everything I can. And there's organization too. We are all volunteers but there some more experienced volunteers and some with extra responsibilities. I just can't reject pull requests because I can't merge them, and I'm not experienced enough to precisely tell people exactly what pull requests are missing. I'll try to pay more attention myself too and give feedback when I see a pull request that I think is incomplete.

-- 
Leandro Lucarella (AKA luca)                     http://llucax.com.ar/
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El techo de mi cuarto lleno de estrellas
January 06, 2013
Pierre Rouleau, el  5 de January a las 23:19 me escribiste:
> On 13-01-05 4:01 PM, Walter Bright wrote:
> >On 1/5/2013 10:06 AM, Pierre Rouleau wrote:
> >>On 13-01-05 5:39 AM, Walter Bright wrote:
> >>>On 1/5/2013 1:30 AM, Pierre Rouleau wrote:
> >>>>I noticed that D 2.062 has no new features.  What would it take to
> >>>>remove the
> >>>>link to New/Changed Features on that version since there are none?
> >>>
> >>>There will be.
> >>>
> >>Do you have a plan of what they will be and a target date for the next release?
> >
> >We've never had a release that didn't have some new/changed features.
> 
> I know.
> 
> What I'm trying to see is what is the development *plan* for D2?

Plan? hahaha, you must be new around here :P

-- 
Leandro Lucarella (AKA luca)                     http://llucax.com.ar/
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GPG Key: 5F5A8D05 (F8CD F9A7 BF00 5431 4145  104C 949E BFB6 5F5A 8D05)
January 06, 2013
Pierre Rouleau, el  4 de January a las 11:59 me escribiste:
> On 13-01-04 3:45 AM, Walter Bright wrote:
> >On 1/4/2013 12:16 AM, eles wrote:
> >>Two concrete examples:
> >>
> >>http://d.puremagic.com/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=5992
> >>
> >>is described in the list as: " Phobos Win64 - D2 "; At least, change
> >>its title
> >>to something more human, like "Win64 alpha has been released with working
> >>Phobos." (yes, that's exactly Don's comment, but at the end of the
> >>discussion).
> >>
> >>http://d.puremagic.com/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=5269
> >>
> >>is described as: "version(assert)". Only if you read the discussion you
> >>understand that "version(unittest) that allows setup code for assertions
> >>to run when assertions are enabled and be compiled out when assertions
> >>are
> >>disabled" was implemented.
> >>
> >>It is very different thing to see "version(assert)" and reading a
> >>meaningful
> >>description of it...
> >
> >I understand and agree. And, as I posted previously, anyone can fix the issue titles. I've already fixed a few.
> Don't you think a process that requires reviewing these titles *before* the actual software release announcement posting would help?

Yeah, that's another issue too. Having mutating "release notes" is awful and a PR disaster. Users only see the changelog once, assuming is immutable, because one thinks that releases are immutable and complete (those are very fundamental properties of a release, otherwise is a preview or a snapshot).

That's another thing that I think is important to address eventually.

-- 
Leandro Lucarella (AKA luca)                     http://llucax.com.ar/
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All evidence has been buried
All tapes have been erased
But your footsteps give you away
So you're backtracking