On 2/13/2013 12:29 PM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
>
> YAML is quite a flexible format. It support references, for example.
>
> Environment: &Environment
>    foo: 1
>    bar: 2
>
> Environment64:
>    <<: *Environment
>    bar: 3
>
> Here "Environment64" will contain everything in "Environment" and then override any values that is listed under "Environment64".
>
> It's also possible to implement new types in YAML.

Looks like one has to learn a new language to use YAML.
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On Wed, 13 Feb 2013 21:29:46 +0100
Jacob Carlborg <doob@me.com> wrote:

> 
> On 13 feb 2013, at 20:37, Walter Bright <walter@digitalmars.com> wrote:
> 
> > 
> > On 2/13/2013 3:06 AM, Leandro Lucarella wrote:
> >> Please, don't use json for configuration files, is a format intended for machines, not humans (OK, is better than XML but still horrible for humans).
> > 
> > Json is simply a subset of javascript, which was intended for humans.
> > 
> >> 
> >> If you need a standard and flexible file format that is almost as good for humans and machines, maybe you want to consider YAML.
> >> 
> >> Environment:
> >>   override:
> >>     name: value
> >>     baz: foo
> >>   default:
> >>     foo: bar
> >> 
> >> But I still think a configuration file shouldn't be as complex as YAML.
> > 
> > Configuration files grow ever more complex, and it'd be nice to have a format that doesn't need constant redesign.
> 
> 
> YAML is quite a flexible format. It support references, for example.
> 
> Environment: &Environment
>   foo: 1
>   bar: 2
> 
> Environment64:
>   <<: *Environment
>   bar: 3
> 
> Here "Environment64" will contain everything in "Environment" and then override any values that is listed under "Environment64".
> 
> It's also possible to implement new types in YAML.
> 

IMO, SDL (Simple Declarative Language, not Simple DirectMedia Layer) beats the heck out of even YAML: http://sdl.ikayzo.org/display/SDL/Home

It's just trivially simple and obvious with no syntactic noise. I had
been a proponent of YAML, but my interest in it died completely after
discovering SDL. YAML has less syntactic noise than JSON, but it's
kinda complicated. I had started writing a D version of SDL last year
but then got distracted. Definitely want to get back to it though.
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Walter Bright, el 13 de February a las 11:37 me escribiste:
> >But I still think a configuration file shouldn't be as complex as YAML.
> 
> Configuration files grow ever more complex, and it'd be nice to have a format that doesn't need constant redesign.

Why it should grow more complex? I need to read the whole thread because I only read about the proposed solution but not the problem...

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On 13 feb 2013, at 21:53, Nick Sabalausky <bus_dmdbeta@semitwist.com> wrote:

> IMO, SDL (Simple Declarative Language, not Simple DirectMedia Layer) beats the heck out of even YAML: http://sdl.ikayzo.org/display/SDL/Home
> 
> It's just trivially simple and obvious with no syntactic noise. I had been a proponent of YAML, but my interest in it died completely after discovering SDL. YAML has less syntactic noise than JSON, but it's kinda complicated. I had started writing a D version of SDL last year but then got distracted. Definitely want to get back to it though.


After a quick glance at that page it looks more complicated than JSON. I would consider YAML less complicated than JSON.

-- 
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On 13 feb 2013, at 21:37, Walter Bright <walter@digitalmars.com> wrote:

> Looks like one has to learn a new language to use YAML.


This is one of the more advanced features in YAML, which one doesn't have to use. You said the the config files are getting more complicated, I showed how YAML can be used to help with that.

In the basic form YAML is just key-value mapping:

bar:
  foo: 1
  baz: 2

-- 
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On Thu, 14 Feb 2013 20:39:33 +0100
Jacob Carlborg <doob@me.com> wrote:

> 
> On 13 feb 2013, at 21:53, Nick Sabalausky <bus_dmdbeta@semitwist.com> wrote:
> 
> > IMO, SDL (Simple Declarative Language, not Simple DirectMedia Layer) beats the heck out of even YAML: http://sdl.ikayzo.org/display/SDL/Home
> > 
> > It's just trivially simple and obvious with no syntactic noise. I had been a proponent of YAML, but my interest in it died completely after discovering SDL. YAML has less syntactic noise than JSON, but it's kinda complicated. I had started writing a D version of SDL last year but then got distracted. Definitely want to get back to it though.
> 
> 
> After a quick glance at that page it looks more complicated than JSON. I would consider YAML less complicated than JSON.
> 

It's actually very simple. Everything is a tag, which is basically of the form:

[namespace:]name [values] [attributes of the form name=value] [{
    children
}]

A basic ini-style list of names/values is just:

first "Joe"
last "Smith"
age 17
addr "123 Road St."

This page is probably a better intro:
http://sdl.ikayzo.org/display/SDL/Language+Guide
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Nick Sabalausky, el 14 de February a las 16:39 me escribiste:
> On Thu, 14 Feb 2013 20:39:33 +0100
> Jacob Carlborg <doob@me.com> wrote:
> 
> > 
> > On 13 feb 2013, at 21:53, Nick Sabalausky <bus_dmdbeta@semitwist.com> wrote:
> > 
> > > IMO, SDL (Simple Declarative Language, not Simple DirectMedia Layer) beats the heck out of even YAML: http://sdl.ikayzo.org/display/SDL/Home
> > > 
> > > It's just trivially simple and obvious with no syntactic noise. I had been a proponent of YAML, but my interest in it died completely after discovering SDL. YAML has less syntactic noise than JSON, but it's kinda complicated. I had started writing a D version of SDL last year but then got distracted. Definitely want to get back to it though.
> > 
> > 
> > After a quick glance at that page it looks more complicated than JSON. I would consider YAML less complicated than JSON.
> > 
> 
> It's actually very simple. Everything is a tag, which is basically of the form:
> 
> [namespace:]name [values] [attributes of the form name=value] [{
>     children
> }]
> 
> A basic ini-style list of names/values is just:
> 
> first "Joe"
> last "Smith"
> age 17
> addr "123 Road St."

Why wouldn't you keep using the ini format then?

-- 
Leandro Lucarella (AKA luca)                     http://llucax.com.ar/
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Barring any last minute objections, I'm going to do the release tonight.

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On Thu, Feb 14, 2013 at 06:40:54PM -0800, Walter Bright wrote:
> Barring any last minute objections, I'm going to do the release tonight.
[...]

Any chance of this pull being included, or are we past that point?

	https://github.com/D-Programming-Language/dmd/pull/1641


T

-- 
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On Fri, 15 Feb 2013 02:47:48 +0100
Leandro Lucarella <luca@llucax.com.ar> wrote:

> Nick Sabalausky, el 14 de February a las 16:39 me escribiste:
> > On Thu, 14 Feb 2013 20:39:33 +0100
> > Jacob Carlborg <doob@me.com> wrote:
> > 
> > > 
> > > On 13 feb 2013, at 21:53, Nick Sabalausky <bus_dmdbeta@semitwist.com> wrote:
> > > 
> > > > IMO, SDL (Simple Declarative Language, not Simple DirectMedia Layer) beats the heck out of even YAML: http://sdl.ikayzo.org/display/SDL/Home
> > > > 
> > > > It's just trivially simple and obvious with no syntactic noise. I had been a proponent of YAML, but my interest in it died completely after discovering SDL. YAML has less syntactic noise than JSON, but it's kinda complicated. I had started writing a D version of SDL last year but then got distracted. Definitely want to get back to it though.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > After a quick glance at that page it looks more complicated than JSON. I would consider YAML less complicated than JSON.
> > > 
> > 
> > It's actually very simple. Everything is a tag, which is basically of the form:
> > 
> > [namespace:]name [values] [attributes of the form name=value] [{
> >     children
> > }]
> > 
> > A basic ini-style list of names/values is just:
> > 
> > first "Joe"
> > last "Smith"
> > age 17
> > addr "123 Road St."
> 
> Why wouldn't you keep using the ini format then?
> 

The point of the discussion was the idea of using an existing format that's more powerful than ini instead of just taking on extra features to our ini-system:

"I also suspect we are reinventing JSON files badly with dmd.conf. Maybe dmd.conf should be redone as a json file." - Walter

Unlike JSON (which Walter mentioned), SDL doesn't add needless syntactic noise. And compared to YAML (which someone else mentioned), SDL has a simpler, easier to understand and non-indent-based syntax. But like JSON and YAML, SDL is much more powerful than INI. Some examples from the SDL site:

# List
numbers 12 53 2 635

# Map
pets chihuahua="small" dalmation="hyper" mastiff="big"

# Tree
plants {
    trees {
        deciduous {
            elm
            oak
        }
    }
}

# Tree w/ various attributes and datatypes
folder "myFiles" color="yellow" protection=on {
    folder "my images" {
        file "myHouse.jpg" color=true date=2005/11/05
        file "myCar.jpg" color=false date=2002/01/05
    }
    folder "my documents" {
        document "resume.pdf"
    }
}

So as long as we were discussing JSON/YAML, I thought I'd point out SDL.
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