The subjects I did the best in and learned the most at uni were the ones where I didn't *have* to take notes and could concentrate on what the lecturer was trying to teach us.

Force students to take notes and the only thing they'll learn is how to write fast.

  -- Daniel

Sean Kelly wrote:
> Georg Wrede wrote:
>>
>> That's certainly true with non-techie audiences. I wish we had had speaking classes when I went to school. The first time I gave a lecture at the university, my hands trembled visibly on the OH.
> 
> I'm fine if I can just sit down and talk, but if I have to stand in front of people I still get nervous and scattered.  I was told my talk at the D conference actually went reasonably well, but I forgot or missed about half the points I'd meant to cover out of sheer terror :-)
> 
> During a public speaking course in high school one of our lectures was supposed to be a published work of some sort, so I did the part of a evangelical preacher in a Steven King novel.  It was a breeze to do and I had a lot of fun with it, playing with pace and tone.  Something about the fact that I was "acting" instead of simply speaking as myself made all the difference in the world.  If I had to give talks regularly I'd probably prepare them pretty much word for word just to feel more like I was doing this, at least until I got more comfortable with speaking.

Some people choose to consider their on-stage persona as a role they play when in public. Whether that's good or not, I dont know. Many of those who've made themselves into a brand name, seem to do this.

I was always terrible at memorization. I couldn't learn my lines in school plays, and once I starred in an educational movie. The director was pulling his hair because I couldn't remember 15 secs of lines at a time. If I make a presentation, I simply have to get familiar with the subject, and then have the slides, like, be my cheat sheet. I always envied the guys (often sales reps, or evangelists), who did the same thing word-for-word, even if I saw them again after six months.

When I had to give the same lecture several times over (like for 1st year students, who were too many to fit the auditorium), the first lecture went always well, the second was awful, the third reasonable, and the fourth was the best. Funny pattern.

Somebody told me to rehearse by lecturing to a teddy bear, but I felt stupid even imagining doing it. Still, finishing on time never was a challenge for me.

Daniel Keep wrote:
> The subjects I did the best in and learned the most at uni were the ones
> where I didn't *have* to take notes and could concentrate on what the
> lecturer was trying to teach us.
> 
> Force students to take notes and the only thing they'll learn is how to
> write fast.

The first university lecture I attended was boring. There was a piece of paper circulating, and it read "a lecture is where the information goes from the lecturer to the students' notes, without going through either's head."

Since, I've made a point of trying to lecture so the info at least goes through my head. :-)

On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 11:55 AM, Daniel Keep <daniel.keep.lists@gmail.com> wrote:
> The subjects I did the best in and learned the most at uni were the ones where I didn't *have* to take notes and could concentrate on what the lecturer was trying to teach us.

Indeed, if writing down notes is required, then the reading material for the course is not complete and that should be addressed. A course should bring a student up to the level where he or she can read and understand course material without too much effort.

Take care,
Daniel

Reply to Sean,

> == Quote from Andrei Alexandrescu (SeeWebsiteForEmail@erdani.org)'s
> article
> 
>> I don't agree. I think there is much more at work here. Slides are
>> limited in size and text content simply because there is so much
>> information a person can absorb simultaneously by hearing and seeing.
>> So the slide with text is simply an anchor, a high-level memento to
>> rest one's eyes on, while the speaker gives some detail pertaining to
>> the high-level points that the slide makes.
>> 
> For lectures I basically have a choice between two options:
> 
> 1. Take notes and not remember a darn thing that was said. 2. Not take
> any notes and remember the lecture.
> 
> I've seen a few raised eyebrows at times, but this is why I never
> write anything down at a meeting or lecture I'm attending--it draws my
> focus away from the material being presented.
> 
> What I really like is when a lecturer provides pre-written notes for
> their
> presentation.  This way I can get everything out of the lecture
> itself, and
> still have material to review later if I want to be reminded of some
> detail.
> Other than a professor or two I've seen precious few people actually
> do
> this however.

I also find that taking notes isn't much use to me. I can't take good enough notes to get everything out of them, so whatever I don't remember outright, I need to be able to read out of the text. Mostly I end up remembering what was taught (as in a list of topics) and how they relate and then dig out the textbook (or wikipidia) for the details. This works because, if I known what questions to ask and topics to Google, I can almost always figure things out my self .

After 6 years of collage, all the notes I have taken could fit in a 1.5 inch binder

Reply to Georg,


> I was always terrible at memorization. I couldn't learn my lines in
> school plays, and once I starred in an educational movie. The director
> was pulling his hair because I couldn't remember 15 secs of lines at a
> time. If I make a presentation, I simply have to get familiar with the
> subject, and then have the slides, like, be my cheat sheet. I always
> envied the guys (often sales reps, or evangelists), who did the same
> thing word-for-word, even if I saw them again after six months.

I can't memorize speeches either (OTOH I really like ones where I can read it off a script) what I'd love to have is a power point setup with two screens for me, one with a copy of the projector and one with my notes (in inch high font) and thumbnails of the following slides.

== Quote from Daniel de Kok (me@danieldk.org)'s article
> On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 11:55 AM, Daniel Keep <daniel.keep.lists@gmail.com> wrote:
> > The subjects I did the best in and learned the most at uni were the ones where I didn't *have* to take notes and could concentrate on what the lecturer was trying to teach us.
> Indeed, if writing down notes is required, then the reading material for the course is not complete and that should be addressed. A course should bring a student up to the level where he or she can read and understand course material without too much effort.

Some professors seem to think that lecturing about material that isn't presented anywhere else will force students to attend class.  But in my experience it also creates a class that takes notes furiously rather than engaging the material and asking questions.  Overall, I think it's a counterproductive strategy.

Often in universities these days there are professional note takers as well, and a student can pay a classmate for copies of their notes.  My wife found this useful because various physical issues made it difficult for her to sit at a desk and write for an hour straight, though I'd probably be inclined to do the same simply so I could pay attention.

As for writing aiding retention in general, I've found that to be true
but it's only something I ever did while studying (taking notes on
reading or re-writing notes relevant for an exam).  If I'm taking
notes in class the information seems to pass through my ears to
the page without ever coming in contact with my brain.

BCS wrote:
> I can't memorize speeches either (OTOH I really like ones where I can read it off a script) what I'd love to have is a power point setup with two screens for me, one with a copy of the projector and one with my notes (in inch high font) and thumbnails of the following slides.

I.e. a teleprompter!

Sean Kelly wrote:
> Some professors seem to think that lecturing about material that isn't
> presented anywhere else will force students to attend class.  But in my
> experience it also creates a class that takes notes furiously rather than
> engaging the material and asking questions.  Overall, I think it's a
> counterproductive strategy.

In my experience, the lack of a textbook for the material was mostly the result of the professor generating his own material and thinking the existing textbooks were all inadequate.

On Mon, 04 May 2009 20:47:10 +0200, Sean Kelly <sean@invisibleduck.org> wrote:

> == Quote from Andrei Alexandrescu (SeeWebsiteForEmail@erdani.org)'s article
>>
>> I don't agree. I think there is much more at work here. Slides are
>> limited in size and text content simply because there is so much
>> information a person can absorb simultaneously by hearing and seeing. So
>> the slide with text is simply an anchor, a high-level memento to rest
>> one's eyes on, while the speaker gives some detail pertaining to the
>> high-level points that the slide makes.
>
> For lectures I basically have a choice between two options:
>
> 1. Take notes and not remember a darn thing that was said.
> 2. Not take any notes and remember the lecture.

I'm fond of using the third option: Not take notes unless something
unexpected pops up.
I tend to use notes for remembering things I will look up later,
not for learning directly.

--
 Simen