ben wrote:
> I would like to point out that you can write crap in any language, its the languages that have the ability to write clean code are the good ones.. ie 
>

yes

> c, my god there is some bad c code, stuff that the copiler can't even figure out enough to optimize it.
> perl - well that is just an invitation for hackers, almost everybody i know that use perl are programmers that like righting unreadable small tight (tight is usually not the case, they just think it is) code, 
> 

yes

> php - everybody I know  that program in php have this consept for everything "Put it in an array, then parse array", that even happens when looping though the results of a database. Every app have looked though (well alot of them have this) while (not the end of query) {
>         put in array
> }
> 
> while not the end of array {
>         do something
> }
> What is the point of that. 
> 
> c++ - overloading and inheratince does not have to be used in everything program like its the "function main()".
> 

but it does.

<snip/> (I read it but this has nothing to do with my issues with C)

In my opinion, while C++ adding the concept of a class is nice, the other less useful but easily and frequently misused features extend,
add onto and compound the problems of C, not improve them.  D leaves in
the good stuff, adds other good stuff (garbage collection), then removes the nasty C++ additions.  This is why I do not like C++, but like D.

PERL - I stated I also don't like PERL but find it less avoidable then C++.

C - there is a time and place for C

Java - expensive, but less problematic than C++

This is way off topic... lets drop it and make D wipe the floor with them all (except PERL which will still be just the write tool for a quick advanced shell script)

-Andy

> Later, Ben
> 
> 
> Jan Knepper wrote:
> 
> 
>>><kindly-scrolls-through-archive-and-repost-for-you/>
>>
>>Thanks!
>>
>>
>>>In article <3CF645E3.3030006@apache.org>, andy says...
>>>
>>>
>>>>>1. http://cobolforgcc.sourceforge.net/cobol_14.html
>>>>>2. http://www.eskimo.com/~johnnyb/computers/toy/
>>>>>3.
>>>>>http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc-3.1/gccint/Languages.html#Languages
>>>>>
>>>>>The great thing is once we get some manner of framework for working
>>>>>with GCC, I think working with walters code should be easy.
>>>>>
>>>>>Project URL for anyone who missed it is at:
>>>>>http://sourceforge.net/projects/brightd -
>>>>
>>OK, did you try to compile Toy?
>>
>>
>>>>>>Why would it requires a specially compiled version of gcc?
>>>>>>I think Walter's code would flow right throug g++ which also should be
>>>>>>able to interface to the backend.
>>>>>
>>>>>You are in error.
>>>>
>>>>Simply Why?
>>>
>>>Look.  No amount of explaining on my part will convince you that this is
>>>not an elementary excercise, you need to see this on your own.
>>
>>OK, hopefully later this week.
>>
>>
>>>>>So?  Who cares?  This is NOT about my C++ dislike.
>>>>
>>>>I don't, but dislikes usually make that you don't know alot about it.
>>>>Just the few things you do not like, at least with me that's the case
>>>>which than of course disabled you to do what you would like to do with
>>>>it.
>>>
>>>No.  I do not profess to have many years of experience in C++ ( 2 ).  I
>>>have written mostly headless code in it (last think I remember writting
>>>was an NT service).
>>
>>Well, if you would, you would put it on your resume or not???
>>
>>
>>>The reason I dislike C++ are the projects I've worked on with others.
>>
>>That's not C++'s fault...
>>
>>
>>>If I were coding strictly on my own or with
>>>someone who writes as good of code as Walter does (only perhaps with a
>>>bit more in the way of comments), then I'd find C++ adequate (like I do
>>>C).  The trouble is that I've never seen exsiting C++ code where
>>>multiple people worked on it and it wasn't a horrible mess.
>>
>><g>
>>I have, but it takes STRONG guidance and somebody really needs to define
>>the style/rules, etc.
>>
>>
>>>Do I know how to write a decent C++ program that is not a mess.  Yes, but
>>>C++ is a language which more adequately facillitates entropy.
>>
>>I know.
>>
>>
>>>I've seen horrible software written in many languages, but the most
>>>horrible software I've seen was written in a mix of C++ and C, the
>>>second most horrible piece of software I've seen was written in VB.  The
>>>afore mentioned C++ code utilized multiple inheritance in ways that
>>>would just hurt your head and I shan't describe it further because it
>>>still hurts my head to think of it.
>>
>>I've seen those things too. I call it "excessive C++" <g>
>>This is not C++'s fault, but the designers...
>>Of course C++ allows you to do it, which I think is great...
>>
>>
>>>For the record, I know PERL and use it when I need an advanced shell
>>>script, but I feel the same way about it as I do C++ for anything more
>>>substantial than a shell script.
>>
>>Don't know perl.
>>
>>
>>>Consequently (and attempting to bring this irrelevant and offtopic
>>>conversation back on the subject), most of the things that I see as
>>>promoting software entropy in C++ are missing or greatly improved in D.
>>
>>Sure are.
>>
>>
>>>>>>Well, I also have tried to compile the front end and as it seems there
>>>>>>are header files missing. I have tried to create some fake once, but
>>>>>>it would require some serious study as to see how it interfaces.
>>>>>>Unfortunately I do not have the time for that at this moment.
>>>>>
>>>>>I got them from walter.  He didn't leave them out on purpose, and the
>>>>>others he left out because he didn't think them important.
>>>>
>>>>Could you put them on FTP please?
>>>
>>>Where?  I imagine he included them in the recent release.
>>
>>I'll give you a userid+passwd via private mail.
>>
>>
>>>>>If C++ was all that great, then there would be no point in D..humm.  My
>>>>>dislike for C++ is irrelevant.  If the C++ approach would work, I'd not
>>>>>even have to necessarily code in C++ very much.
>>>>
>>>>I don't say C++ is that great. I just happen to like it and have quite a
>>>>bit of experience with it.
>>>>Indeed if the C++ approach works the whole project would make a lot more
>>>>sense to me as no work is being redone. That's one thing I really do not
>>>>like, not for myself nor others.
>>>
>>>I avoid working in C++ and therefore do not have a great deal of
>>>experience in it (2+ years).  I also do not have a great deal of
>>>experience burning my own flesh, although I've rubbed against hot pans
>>>on the stove by accident on a few accassions and once tripped and
>>>touched my finger to my bar-b-que grill, from this experience I feel
>>>fully qualified in saying that having one's flesh burnt seriously sucks
>>>and I will continue to avoid it (just like C++).
>>
>>That's comparing apples and oranges, but point taken.
>>I would not go and burn my own flesh eather, but I have been know of
>>taking a razor and cutting some stuff out of my foot... (No kiddig!) Also,
>>I have not problems refraining from 'pleasures' in life and tend to
>>pressure myself to hard... (only slept from 4:30 to 7:45 last night). So
>>basically, the more difficult it gets for me, the more fun I have.
>>
>>
>>>Since you do not plan to contribute to the project, I do not understand
>>>why rework would be an issue for you.
>>
>>I think that time could be spend better... I spend too little time with my
>>better half...
>>
>>
>>>>>If I didn't have a car I couldn't get to work.  Public transportation
>>>>>here sucks and Cabs are $35 bucks a trip (hardly worth it).
>>>>
>>>>I live out in the stix, the nearest store is about 5 miles away...
>>>>I don't even think we have public transportation anywhere close!
>>>
>>>I actually live reasonably out in the stix.  Although there is a gas
>>>station/conv store within a few miles.
>>
>>No gas for at least 6/7 miles.
>>
>>
>>>>>I'm doing this in non-continuous blocks.  OKAY LETS GET ONE THING
>>>>>STRAIGHT.  MY PROBLEM IS NOT C++ its GCC.  And until you ACTUALLY look
>>>>>at GCC and at least ONE of the front end examples (which should take
>>>>>you all of 2 hours if your skill matches your gab), you've NO idea what
>>>>>I'm talking about.
>>>>
>>>>Well thanks!
>>>>Just point me to where I can find the stuff.
>>>>I might REWRITE one of the front ends in C++. That would be an easy and
>>>>quick way to go.
>>>
>>>Then I'll be convinced.  With me, code speaks way louder than words.  I
>>>honestly hope you prove me a baffoon and make short
>>>work of it.  From there, the stooge shall quietly take your example and
>>>begin working out a way to plug the D front end onto it.
>>>
>>>BTW, Ben mentioned he was insterested in doing the same thing, so you
>>>might want to utilize his assistance in the interest in saving time.
>>
>>Well, this is an open forum. Ben should be able to followup on this.
>>I will check with him though.
>>Thanks!
>>Jan
> 
> 

I would like to see d wipe the floor but the first step is to get it into linux.. So far nowone will help me build a c++ frontend but I am going to keep working at it..

later, Ben

andy wrote:

> ben wrote:
>> I would like to point out that you can write crap in any language, its the languages that have the ability to write clean code are the good ones.. ie
>>
> 
> yes
> 
>> c, my god there is some bad c code, stuff that the copiler can't even
>> figure out enough to optimize it.
>> perl - well that is just an invitation for hackers, almost everybody i
>> know that use perl are programmers that like righting unreadable small
>> tight (tight is usually not the case, they just think it is) code,
>> 
> 
> yes
> 
>> php - everybody I know  that program in php have this consept for
>> everything "Put it in an array, then parse array", that even happens when
>> looping though the results of a database. Every app have looked though
>> (well alot of them have this)
>> while (not the end of query) {
>>         put in array
>> }
>> 
>> while not the end of array {
>>         do something
>> }
>> What is the point of that.
>> 
>> c++ - overloading and inheratince does not have to be used in everything program like its the "function main()".
>> 
> 
> but it does.
> 
> <snip/> (I read it but this has nothing to do with my issues with C)
> 
> In my opinion, while C++ adding the concept of a class is nice, the other less useful but easily and frequently misused features extend, add onto and compound the problems of C, not improve them.  D leaves in the good stuff, adds other good stuff (garbage collection), then removes the nasty C++ additions.  This is why I do not like C++, but like D.
> 
> PERL - I stated I also don't like PERL but find it less avoidable then C++.
> 
> C - there is a time and place for C
> 
> Java - expensive, but less problematic than C++
> 
> This is way off topic... lets drop it and make D wipe the floor with them all (except PERL which will still be just the write tool for a quick advanced shell script)
> 
> -Andy
> 
>> Later, Ben
>> 
>> 
>> Jan Knepper wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>>><kindly-scrolls-through-archive-and-repost-for-you/>
>>>
>>>Thanks!
>>>
>>>
>>>>In article <3CF645E3.3030006@apache.org>, andy says...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>1. http://cobolforgcc.sourceforge.net/cobol_14.html
>>>>>>2. http://www.eskimo.com/~johnnyb/computers/toy/
>>>>>>3.
>>>>>>http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc-3.1/gccint/Languages.html#Languages
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The great thing is once we get some manner of framework for working with GCC, I think working with walters code should be easy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Project URL for anyone who missed it is at: http://sourceforge.net/projects/brightd -
>>>>>
>>>OK, did you try to compile Toy?
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>>Why would it requires a specially compiled version of gcc?
>>>>>>>I think Walter's code would flow right throug g++ which also should
>>>>>>>be able to interface to the backend.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>You are in error.
>>>>>
>>>>>Simply Why?
>>>>
>>>>Look.  No amount of explaining on my part will convince you that this is not an elementary excercise, you need to see this on your own.
>>>
>>>OK, hopefully later this week.
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>So?  Who cares?  This is NOT about my C++ dislike.
>>>>>
>>>>>I don't, but dislikes usually make that you don't know alot about it. Just the few things you do not like, at least with me that's the case which than of course disabled you to do what you would like to do with it.
>>>>
>>>>No.  I do not profess to have many years of experience in C++ ( 2 ).  I
>>>>have written mostly headless code in it (last think I remember writting
>>>>was an NT service).
>>>
>>>Well, if you would, you would put it on your resume or not???
>>>
>>>
>>>>The reason I dislike C++ are the projects I've worked on with others.
>>>
>>>That's not C++'s fault...
>>>
>>>
>>>>If I were coding strictly on my own or with
>>>>someone who writes as good of code as Walter does (only perhaps with a
>>>>bit more in the way of comments), then I'd find C++ adequate (like I do
>>>>C).  The trouble is that I've never seen exsiting C++ code where
>>>>multiple people worked on it and it wasn't a horrible mess.
>>>
>>><g>
>>>I have, but it takes STRONG guidance and somebody really needs to define
>>>the style/rules, etc.
>>>
>>>
>>>>Do I know how to write a decent C++ program that is not a mess.  Yes, but C++ is a language which more adequately facillitates entropy.
>>>
>>>I know.
>>>
>>>
>>>>I've seen horrible software written in many languages, but the most horrible software I've seen was written in a mix of C++ and C, the second most horrible piece of software I've seen was written in VB.  The afore mentioned C++ code utilized multiple inheritance in ways that would just hurt your head and I shan't describe it further because it still hurts my head to think of it.
>>>
>>>I've seen those things too. I call it "excessive C++" <g>
>>>This is not C++'s fault, but the designers...
>>>Of course C++ allows you to do it, which I think is great...
>>>
>>>
>>>>For the record, I know PERL and use it when I need an advanced shell script, but I feel the same way about it as I do C++ for anything more substantial than a shell script.
>>>
>>>Don't know perl.
>>>
>>>
>>>>Consequently (and attempting to bring this irrelevant and offtopic conversation back on the subject), most of the things that I see as promoting software entropy in C++ are missing or greatly improved in D.
>>>
>>>Sure are.
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>>Well, I also have tried to compile the front end and as it seems there are header files missing. I have tried to create some fake once, but it would require some serious study as to see how it interfaces. Unfortunately I do not have the time for that at this moment.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I got them from walter.  He didn't leave them out on purpose, and the others he left out because he didn't think them important.
>>>>>
>>>>>Could you put them on FTP please?
>>>>
>>>>Where?  I imagine he included them in the recent release.
>>>
>>>I'll give you a userid+passwd via private mail.
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>If C++ was all that great, then there would be no point in D..humm.
>>>>>>My
>>>>>>dislike for C++ is irrelevant.  If the C++ approach would work, I'd
>>>>>>not even have to necessarily code in C++ very much.
>>>>>
>>>>>I don't say C++ is that great. I just happen to like it and have quite
>>>>>a bit of experience with it.
>>>>>Indeed if the C++ approach works the whole project would make a lot
>>>>>more sense to me as no work is being redone. That's one thing I really
>>>>>do not like, not for myself nor others.
>>>>
>>>>I avoid working in C++ and therefore do not have a great deal of experience in it (2+ years).  I also do not have a great deal of experience burning my own flesh, although I've rubbed against hot pans on the stove by accident on a few accassions and once tripped and touched my finger to my bar-b-que grill, from this experience I feel fully qualified in saying that having one's flesh burnt seriously sucks and I will continue to avoid it (just like C++).
>>>
>>>That's comparing apples and oranges, but point taken.
>>>I would not go and burn my own flesh eather, but I have been know of
>>>taking a razor and cutting some stuff out of my foot... (No kiddig!)
>>>Also, I have not problems refraining from 'pleasures' in life and tend to
>>>pressure myself to hard... (only slept from 4:30 to 7:45 last night). So
>>>basically, the more difficult it gets for me, the more fun I have.
>>>
>>>
>>>>Since you do not plan to contribute to the project, I do not understand why rework would be an issue for you.
>>>
>>>I think that time could be spend better... I spend too little time with my better half...
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>If I didn't have a car I couldn't get to work.  Public transportation here sucks and Cabs are $35 bucks a trip (hardly worth it).
>>>>>
>>>>>I live out in the stix, the nearest store is about 5 miles away... I don't even think we have public transportation anywhere close!
>>>>
>>>>I actually live reasonably out in the stix.  Although there is a gas station/conv store within a few miles.
>>>
>>>No gas for at least 6/7 miles.
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>I'm doing this in non-continuous blocks.  OKAY LETS GET ONE THING STRAIGHT.  MY PROBLEM IS NOT C++ its GCC.  And until you ACTUALLY look at GCC and at least ONE of the front end examples (which should take you all of 2 hours if your skill matches your gab), you've NO idea what I'm talking about.
>>>>>
>>>>>Well thanks!
>>>>>Just point me to where I can find the stuff.
>>>>>I might REWRITE one of the front ends in C++. That would be an easy and
>>>>>quick way to go.
>>>>
>>>>Then I'll be convinced.  With me, code speaks way louder than words.  I
>>>>honestly hope you prove me a baffoon and make short
>>>>work of it.  From there, the stooge shall quietly take your example and
>>>>begin working out a way to plug the D front end onto it.
>>>>
>>>>BTW, Ben mentioned he was insterested in doing the same thing, so you might want to utilize his assistance in the interest in saving time.
>>>
>>>Well, this is an open forum. Ben should be able to followup on this.
>>>I will check with him though.
>>>Thanks!
>>>Jan
>> 
>>

Jan is working at it too.  Perhaps if you summarize what you've done so far.  Oh and the site will move to www.opend.org, provided we all agree on an approach.

-Andy

ben wrote:
> I would like to see d wipe the floor but the first step is to get it into linux.. So far nowone will help me build a c++ frontend but I am going to keep working at it..
> 
> later, Ben
> 
> andy wrote:
> 
> 
>>ben wrote:
>>
>>>I would like to point out that you can write crap in any language, its
>>>the languages that have the ability to write clean code are the good
>>>ones.. ie
>>>
>>
>>yes
>>
>>
>>>c, my god there is some bad c code, stuff that the copiler can't even
>>>figure out enough to optimize it.
>>>perl - well that is just an invitation for hackers, almost everybody i
>>>know that use perl are programmers that like righting unreadable small
>>>tight (tight is usually not the case, they just think it is) code,
>>>
>>
>>yes
>>
>>
>>>php - everybody I know  that program in php have this consept for
>>>everything "Put it in an array, then parse array", that even happens when
>>>looping though the results of a database. Every app have looked though
>>>(well alot of them have this)
>>>while (not the end of query) {
>>>        put in array
>>>}
>>>
>>>while not the end of array {
>>>        do something
>>>}
>>>What is the point of that.
>>>
>>>c++ - overloading and inheratince does not have to be used in everything
>>>program like its the "function main()".
>>>
>>
>>but it does.
>>
>><snip/> (I read it but this has nothing to do with my issues with C)
>>
>>In my opinion, while C++ adding the concept of a class is nice, the
>>other less useful but easily and frequently misused features extend,
>>add onto and compound the problems of C, not improve them.  D leaves in
>>the good stuff, adds other good stuff (garbage collection), then removes
>>the nasty C++ additions.  This is why I do not like C++, but like D.
>>
>>PERL - I stated I also don't like PERL but find it less avoidable then
>>C++.
>>
>>C - there is a time and place for C
>>
>>Java - expensive, but less problematic than C++
>>
>>This is way off topic... lets drop it and make D wipe the floor with
>>them all (except PERL which will still be just the write tool for a
>>quick advanced shell script)
>>
>>-Andy
>>
>>
>>>Later, Ben
>>>
>>>
>>>Jan Knepper wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>><kindly-scrolls-through-archive-and-repost-for-you/>
>>>>
>>>>Thanks!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>In article <3CF645E3.3030006@apache.org>, andy says...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>1. http://cobolforgcc.sourceforge.net/cobol_14.html
>>>>>>>2. http://www.eskimo.com/~johnnyb/computers/toy/
>>>>>>>3.
>>>>>>>http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc-3.1/gccint/Languages.html#Languages
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>The great thing is once we get some manner of framework for working
>>>>>>>with GCC, I think working with walters code should be easy.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Project URL for anyone who missed it is at:
>>>>>>>http://sourceforge.net/projects/brightd -
>>>>>>
>>>>OK, did you try to compile Toy?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>Why would it requires a specially compiled version of gcc?
>>>>>>>>I think Walter's code would flow right throug g++ which also should
>>>>>>>>be able to interface to the backend.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>You are in error.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Simply Why?
>>>>>
>>>>>Look.  No amount of explaining on my part will convince you that this is
>>>>>not an elementary excercise, you need to see this on your own.
>>>>
>>>>OK, hopefully later this week.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>So?  Who cares?  This is NOT about my C++ dislike.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I don't, but dislikes usually make that you don't know alot about it.
>>>>>>Just the few things you do not like, at least with me that's the case
>>>>>>which than of course disabled you to do what you would like to do with
>>>>>>it.
>>>>>
>>>>>No.  I do not profess to have many years of experience in C++ ( 2 ).  I
>>>>>have written mostly headless code in it (last think I remember writting
>>>>>was an NT service).
>>>>
>>>>Well, if you would, you would put it on your resume or not???
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>The reason I dislike C++ are the projects I've worked on with others.
>>>>
>>>>That's not C++'s fault...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>If I were coding strictly on my own or with
>>>>>someone who writes as good of code as Walter does (only perhaps with a
>>>>>bit more in the way of comments), then I'd find C++ adequate (like I do
>>>>>C).  The trouble is that I've never seen exsiting C++ code where
>>>>>multiple people worked on it and it wasn't a horrible mess.
>>>>
>>>><g>
>>>>I have, but it takes STRONG guidance and somebody really needs to define
>>>>the style/rules, etc.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Do I know how to write a decent C++ program that is not a mess.  Yes,
>>>>>but C++ is a language which more adequately facillitates entropy.
>>>>
>>>>I know.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I've seen horrible software written in many languages, but the most
>>>>>horrible software I've seen was written in a mix of C++ and C, the
>>>>>second most horrible piece of software I've seen was written in VB.  The
>>>>>afore mentioned C++ code utilized multiple inheritance in ways that
>>>>>would just hurt your head and I shan't describe it further because it
>>>>>still hurts my head to think of it.
>>>>
>>>>I've seen those things too. I call it "excessive C++" <g>
>>>>This is not C++'s fault, but the designers...
>>>>Of course C++ allows you to do it, which I think is great...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>For the record, I know PERL and use it when I need an advanced shell
>>>>>script, but I feel the same way about it as I do C++ for anything more
>>>>>substantial than a shell script.
>>>>
>>>>Don't know perl.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Consequently (and attempting to bring this irrelevant and offtopic
>>>>>conversation back on the subject), most of the things that I see as
>>>>>promoting software entropy in C++ are missing or greatly improved in D.
>>>>
>>>>Sure are.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>Well, I also have tried to compile the front end and as it seems
>>>>>>>>there are header files missing. I have tried to create some fake
>>>>>>>>once, but it would require some serious study as to see how it
>>>>>>>>interfaces. Unfortunately I do not have the time for that at this
>>>>>>>>moment.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I got them from walter.  He didn't leave them out on purpose, and the
>>>>>>>others he left out because he didn't think them important.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Could you put them on FTP please?
>>>>>
>>>>>Where?  I imagine he included them in the recent release.
>>>>
>>>>I'll give you a userid+passwd via private mail.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>If C++ was all that great, then there would be no point in D..humm. My
>>>>>>>dislike for C++ is irrelevant.  If the C++ approach would work, I'd
>>>>>>>not even have to necessarily code in C++ very much.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I don't say C++ is that great. I just happen to like it and have quite
>>>>>>a bit of experience with it.
>>>>>>Indeed if the C++ approach works the whole project would make a lot
>>>>>>more sense to me as no work is being redone. That's one thing I really
>>>>>>do not like, not for myself nor others.
>>>>>
>>>>>I avoid working in C++ and therefore do not have a great deal of
>>>>>experience in it (2+ years).  I also do not have a great deal of
>>>>>experience burning my own flesh, although I've rubbed against hot pans
>>>>>on the stove by accident on a few accassions and once tripped and
>>>>>touched my finger to my bar-b-que grill, from this experience I feel
>>>>>fully qualified in saying that having one's flesh burnt seriously sucks
>>>>>and I will continue to avoid it (just like C++).
>>>>
>>>>That's comparing apples and oranges, but point taken.
>>>>I would not go and burn my own flesh eather, but I have been know of
>>>>taking a razor and cutting some stuff out of my foot... (No kiddig!)
>>>>Also, I have not problems refraining from 'pleasures' in life and tend to
>>>>pressure myself to hard... (only slept from 4:30 to 7:45 last night). So
>>>>basically, the more difficult it gets for me, the more fun I have.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Since you do not plan to contribute to the project, I do not understand
>>>>>why rework would be an issue for you.
>>>>
>>>>I think that time could be spend better... I spend too little time with
>>>>my better half...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>If I didn't have a car I couldn't get to work.  Public transportation
>>>>>>>here sucks and Cabs are $35 bucks a trip (hardly worth it).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I live out in the stix, the nearest store is about 5 miles away...
>>>>>>I don't even think we have public transportation anywhere close!
>>>>>
>>>>>I actually live reasonably out in the stix.  Although there is a gas
>>>>>station/conv store within a few miles.
>>>>
>>>>No gas for at least 6/7 miles.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>I'm doing this in non-continuous blocks.  OKAY LETS GET ONE THING
>>>>>>>STRAIGHT.  MY PROBLEM IS NOT C++ its GCC.  And until you ACTUALLY look
>>>>>>>at GCC and at least ONE of the front end examples (which should take
>>>>>>>you all of 2 hours if your skill matches your gab), you've NO idea
>>>>>>>what I'm talking about.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Well thanks!
>>>>>>Just point me to where I can find the stuff.
>>>>>>I might REWRITE one of the front ends in C++. That would be an easy and
>>>>>>quick way to go.
>>>>>
>>>>>Then I'll be convinced.  With me, code speaks way louder than words.  I
>>>>>honestly hope you prove me a baffoon and make short
>>>>>work of it.  From there, the stooge shall quietly take your example and
>>>>>begin working out a way to plug the D front end onto it.
>>>>>
>>>>>BTW, Ben mentioned he was insterested in doing the same thing, so you
>>>>>might want to utilize his assistance in the interest in saving time.
>>>>
>>>>Well, this is an open forum. Ben should be able to followup on this.
>>>>I will check with him though.
>>>>Thanks!
>>>>Jan
>>>
>>>
> 

Hi ben!
When are you up to this as I am trying to squeeze that in to hopefully this
weekend.
Probably Sunday after church...
Jan



ben wrote:

> I would like to see d wipe the floor but the first step is to get it into linux.. So far nowone will help me build a c++ frontend but I am going to keep working at it..
>
> later, Ben
>
> andy wrote:
>
> > ben wrote:
> >> I would like to point out that you can write crap in any language, its the languages that have the ability to write clean code are the good ones.. ie
> >>
> >
> > yes
> >
> >> c, my god there is some bad c code, stuff that the copiler can't even
> >> figure out enough to optimize it.
> >> perl - well that is just an invitation for hackers, almost everybody i
> >> know that use perl are programmers that like righting unreadable small
> >> tight (tight is usually not the case, they just think it is) code,
> >>
> >
> > yes
> >
> >> php - everybody I know  that program in php have this consept for
> >> everything "Put it in an array, then parse array", that even happens when
> >> looping though the results of a database. Every app have looked though
> >> (well alot of them have this)
> >> while (not the end of query) {
> >>         put in array
> >> }
> >>
> >> while not the end of array {
> >>         do something
> >> }
> >> What is the point of that.
> >>
> >> c++ - overloading and inheratince does not have to be used in everything program like its the "function main()".
> >>
> >
> > but it does.
> >
> > <snip/> (I read it but this has nothing to do with my issues with C)
> >
> > In my opinion, while C++ adding the concept of a class is nice, the other less useful but easily and frequently misused features extend, add onto and compound the problems of C, not improve them.  D leaves in the good stuff, adds other good stuff (garbage collection), then removes the nasty C++ additions.  This is why I do not like C++, but like D.
> >
> > PERL - I stated I also don't like PERL but find it less avoidable then C++.
> >
> > C - there is a time and place for C
> >
> > Java - expensive, but less problematic than C++
> >
> > This is way off topic... lets drop it and make D wipe the floor with them all (except PERL which will still be just the write tool for a quick advanced shell script)
> >
> > -Andy
> >
> >> Later, Ben
> >>
> >>
> >> Jan Knepper wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>><kindly-scrolls-through-archive-and-repost-for-you/>
> >>>
> >>>Thanks!
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>In article <3CF645E3.3030006@apache.org>, andy says...
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>1. http://cobolforgcc.sourceforge.net/cobol_14.html
> >>>>>>2. http://www.eskimo.com/~johnnyb/computers/toy/
> >>>>>>3.
> >>>>>>http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc-3.1/gccint/Languages.html#Languages
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>The great thing is once we get some manner of framework for working with GCC, I think working with walters code should be easy.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Project URL for anyone who missed it is at: http://sourceforge.net/projects/brightd -
> >>>>>
> >>>OK, did you try to compile Toy?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>>>Why would it requires a specially compiled version of gcc?
> >>>>>>>I think Walter's code would flow right throug g++ which also should
> >>>>>>>be able to interface to the backend.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>You are in error.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Simply Why?
> >>>>
> >>>>Look.  No amount of explaining on my part will convince you that this is not an elementary excercise, you need to see this on your own.
> >>>
> >>>OK, hopefully later this week.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>>So?  Who cares?  This is NOT about my C++ dislike.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>I don't, but dislikes usually make that you don't know alot about it. Just the few things you do not like, at least with me that's the case which than of course disabled you to do what you would like to do with it.
> >>>>
> >>>>No.  I do not profess to have many years of experience in C++ ( 2 ).  I
> >>>>have written mostly headless code in it (last think I remember writting
> >>>>was an NT service).
> >>>
> >>>Well, if you would, you would put it on your resume or not???
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>The reason I dislike C++ are the projects I've worked on with others.
> >>>
> >>>That's not C++'s fault...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>If I were coding strictly on my own or with
> >>>>someone who writes as good of code as Walter does (only perhaps with a
> >>>>bit more in the way of comments), then I'd find C++ adequate (like I do
> >>>>C).  The trouble is that I've never seen exsiting C++ code where
> >>>>multiple people worked on it and it wasn't a horrible mess.
> >>>
> >>><g>
> >>>I have, but it takes STRONG guidance and somebody really needs to define
> >>>the style/rules, etc.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Do I know how to write a decent C++ program that is not a mess.  Yes, but C++ is a language which more adequately facillitates entropy.
> >>>
> >>>I know.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>I've seen horrible software written in many languages, but the most horrible software I've seen was written in a mix of C++ and C, the second most horrible piece of software I've seen was written in VB.  The afore mentioned C++ code utilized multiple inheritance in ways that would just hurt your head and I shan't describe it further because it still hurts my head to think of it.
> >>>
> >>>I've seen those things too. I call it "excessive C++" <g>
> >>>This is not C++'s fault, but the designers...
> >>>Of course C++ allows you to do it, which I think is great...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>For the record, I know PERL and use it when I need an advanced shell script, but I feel the same way about it as I do C++ for anything more substantial than a shell script.
> >>>
> >>>Don't know perl.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Consequently (and attempting to bring this irrelevant and offtopic conversation back on the subject), most of the things that I see as promoting software entropy in C++ are missing or greatly improved in D.
> >>>
> >>>Sure are.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>>>Well, I also have tried to compile the front end and as it seems there are header files missing. I have tried to create some fake once, but it would require some serious study as to see how it interfaces. Unfortunately I do not have the time for that at this moment.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>I got them from walter.  He didn't leave them out on purpose, and the others he left out because he didn't think them important.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Could you put them on FTP please?
> >>>>
> >>>>Where?  I imagine he included them in the recent release.
> >>>
> >>>I'll give you a userid+passwd via private mail.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>>If C++ was all that great, then there would be no point in D..humm.
> >>>>>>My
> >>>>>>dislike for C++ is irrelevant.  If the C++ approach would work, I'd
> >>>>>>not even have to necessarily code in C++ very much.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>I don't say C++ is that great. I just happen to like it and have quite
> >>>>>a bit of experience with it.
> >>>>>Indeed if the C++ approach works the whole project would make a lot
> >>>>>more sense to me as no work is being redone. That's one thing I really
> >>>>>do not like, not for myself nor others.
> >>>>
> >>>>I avoid working in C++ and therefore do not have a great deal of experience in it (2+ years).  I also do not have a great deal of experience burning my own flesh, although I've rubbed against hot pans on the stove by accident on a few accassions and once tripped and touched my finger to my bar-b-que grill, from this experience I feel fully qualified in saying that having one's flesh burnt seriously sucks and I will continue to avoid it (just like C++).
> >>>
> >>>That's comparing apples and oranges, but point taken.
> >>>I would not go and burn my own flesh eather, but I have been know of
> >>>taking a razor and cutting some stuff out of my foot... (No kiddig!)
> >>>Also, I have not problems refraining from 'pleasures' in life and tend to
> >>>pressure myself to hard... (only slept from 4:30 to 7:45 last night). So
> >>>basically, the more difficult it gets for me, the more fun I have.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Since you do not plan to contribute to the project, I do not understand why rework would be an issue for you.
> >>>
> >>>I think that time could be spend better... I spend too little time with my better half...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>>If I didn't have a car I couldn't get to work.  Public transportation here sucks and Cabs are $35 bucks a trip (hardly worth it).
> >>>>>
> >>>>>I live out in the stix, the nearest store is about 5 miles away... I don't even think we have public transportation anywhere close!
> >>>>
> >>>>I actually live reasonably out in the stix.  Although there is a gas station/conv store within a few miles.
> >>>
> >>>No gas for at least 6/7 miles.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>>I'm doing this in non-continuous blocks.  OKAY LETS GET ONE THING STRAIGHT.  MY PROBLEM IS NOT C++ its GCC.  And until you ACTUALLY look at GCC and at least ONE of the front end examples (which should take you all of 2 hours if your skill matches your gab), you've NO idea what I'm talking about.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Well thanks!
> >>>>>Just point me to where I can find the stuff.
> >>>>>I might REWRITE one of the front ends in C++. That would be an easy and
> >>>>>quick way to go.
> >>>>
> >>>>Then I'll be convinced.  With me, code speaks way louder than words.  I
> >>>>honestly hope you prove me a baffoon and make short
> >>>>work of it.  From there, the stooge shall quietly take your example and
> >>>>begin working out a way to plug the D front end onto it.
> >>>>
> >>>>BTW, Ben mentioned he was insterested in doing the same thing, so you might want to utilize his assistance in the interest in saving time.
> >>>
> >>>Well, this is an open forum. Ben should be able to followup on this.
> >>>I will check with him though.
> >>>Thanks!
> >>>Jan
> >>
> >>

andy wrote:

> Jan is working at it too.  Perhaps if you summarize what you've done so far.  Oh and the site will move to www.opend.org, provided we all agree on an approach.

The site is for the 'port' not for the approach.
Jan

Opend sounds good to me..

andy wrote:

> Jan is working at it too.  Perhaps if you summarize what you've done so far.  Oh and the site will move to www.opend.org, provided we all agree on an approach.
> 
> -Andy
> 
> ben wrote:
>> I would like to see d wipe the floor but the first step is to get it into linux.. So far nowone will help me build a c++ frontend but I am going to keep working at it..
>> 
>> later, Ben
>> 
>> andy wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>>ben wrote:
>>>
>>>>I would like to point out that you can write crap in any language, its the languages that have the ability to write clean code are the good ones.. ie
>>>>
>>>
>>>yes
>>>
>>>
>>>>c, my god there is some bad c code, stuff that the copiler can't even
>>>>figure out enough to optimize it.
>>>>perl - well that is just an invitation for hackers, almost everybody i
>>>>know that use perl are programmers that like righting unreadable small
>>>>tight (tight is usually not the case, they just think it is) code,
>>>>
>>>
>>>yes
>>>
>>>
>>>>php - everybody I know  that program in php have this consept for
>>>>everything "Put it in an array, then parse array", that even happens
>>>>when looping though the results of a database. Every app have looked
>>>>though (well alot of them have this)
>>>>while (not the end of query) {
>>>>        put in array
>>>>}
>>>>
>>>>while not the end of array {
>>>>        do something
>>>>}
>>>>What is the point of that.
>>>>
>>>>c++ - overloading and inheratince does not have to be used in everything program like its the "function main()".
>>>>
>>>
>>>but it does.
>>>
>>><snip/> (I read it but this has nothing to do with my issues with C)
>>>
>>>In my opinion, while C++ adding the concept of a class is nice, the other less useful but easily and frequently misused features extend, add onto and compound the problems of C, not improve them.  D leaves in the good stuff, adds other good stuff (garbage collection), then removes the nasty C++ additions.  This is why I do not like C++, but like D.
>>>
>>>PERL - I stated I also don't like PERL but find it less avoidable then C++.
>>>
>>>C - there is a time and place for C
>>>
>>>Java - expensive, but less problematic than C++
>>>
>>>This is way off topic... lets drop it and make D wipe the floor with them all (except PERL which will still be just the write tool for a quick advanced shell script)
>>>
>>>-Andy
>>>
>>>
>>>>Later, Ben
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Jan Knepper wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>><kindly-scrolls-through-archive-and-repost-for-you/>
>>>>>
>>>>>Thanks!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>In article <3CF645E3.3030006@apache.org>, andy says...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>1. http://cobolforgcc.sourceforge.net/cobol_14.html
>>>>>>>>2. http://www.eskimo.com/~johnnyb/computers/toy/
>>>>>>>>3.
>>>>>>>>http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc-3.1/gccint/Languages.html#Languages
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>The great thing is once we get some manner of framework for working with GCC, I think working with walters code should be easy.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Project URL for anyone who missed it is at: http://sourceforge.net/projects/brightd -
>>>>>>>
>>>>>OK, did you try to compile Toy?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Why would it requires a specially compiled version of gcc?
>>>>>>>>>I think Walter's code would flow right throug g++ which also should
>>>>>>>>>be able to interface to the backend.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>You are in error.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Simply Why?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Look.  No amount of explaining on my part will convince you that this is not an elementary excercise, you need to see this on your own.
>>>>>
>>>>>OK, hopefully later this week.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>So?  Who cares?  This is NOT about my C++ dislike.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I don't, but dislikes usually make that you don't know alot about it. Just the few things you do not like, at least with me that's the case which than of course disabled you to do what you would like to do with it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>No.  I do not profess to have many years of experience in C++ ( 2 ).
>>>>>>I have written mostly headless code in it (last think I remember
>>>>>>writting was an NT service).
>>>>>
>>>>>Well, if you would, you would put it on your resume or not???
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>The reason I dislike C++ are the projects I've worked on with others.
>>>>>
>>>>>That's not C++'s fault...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>If I were coding strictly on my own or with
>>>>>>someone who writes as good of code as Walter does (only perhaps with a
>>>>>>bit more in the way of comments), then I'd find C++ adequate (like I
>>>>>>do
>>>>>>C).  The trouble is that I've never seen exsiting C++ code where
>>>>>>multiple people worked on it and it wasn't a horrible mess.
>>>>>
>>>>><g>
>>>>>I have, but it takes STRONG guidance and somebody really needs to
>>>>>define the style/rules, etc.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Do I know how to write a decent C++ program that is not a mess.  Yes, but C++ is a language which more adequately facillitates entropy.
>>>>>
>>>>>I know.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>I've seen horrible software written in many languages, but the most horrible software I've seen was written in a mix of C++ and C, the second most horrible piece of software I've seen was written in VB. The afore mentioned C++ code utilized multiple inheritance in ways that would just hurt your head and I shan't describe it further because it still hurts my head to think of it.
>>>>>
>>>>>I've seen those things too. I call it "excessive C++" <g>
>>>>>This is not C++'s fault, but the designers...
>>>>>Of course C++ allows you to do it, which I think is great...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>For the record, I know PERL and use it when I need an advanced shell script, but I feel the same way about it as I do C++ for anything more substantial than a shell script.
>>>>>
>>>>>Don't know perl.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Consequently (and attempting to bring this irrelevant and offtopic conversation back on the subject), most of the things that I see as promoting software entropy in C++ are missing or greatly improved in D.
>>>>>
>>>>>Sure are.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Well, I also have tried to compile the front end and as it seems there are header files missing. I have tried to create some fake once, but it would require some serious study as to see how it interfaces. Unfortunately I do not have the time for that at this moment.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I got them from walter.  He didn't leave them out on purpose, and the others he left out because he didn't think them important.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Could you put them on FTP please?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Where?  I imagine he included them in the recent release.
>>>>>
>>>>>I'll give you a userid+passwd via private mail.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>If C++ was all that great, then there would be no point in D..humm.
>>>>>>>>My
>>>>>>>>dislike for C++ is irrelevant.  If the C++ approach would work, I'd
>>>>>>>>not even have to necessarily code in C++ very much.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I don't say C++ is that great. I just happen to like it and have
>>>>>>>quite a bit of experience with it.
>>>>>>>Indeed if the C++ approach works the whole project would make a lot
>>>>>>>more sense to me as no work is being redone. That's one thing I
>>>>>>>really do not like, not for myself nor others.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I avoid working in C++ and therefore do not have a great deal of experience in it (2+ years).  I also do not have a great deal of experience burning my own flesh, although I've rubbed against hot pans on the stove by accident on a few accassions and once tripped and touched my finger to my bar-b-que grill, from this experience I feel fully qualified in saying that having one's flesh burnt seriously sucks and I will continue to avoid it (just like C++).
>>>>>
>>>>>That's comparing apples and oranges, but point taken.
>>>>>I would not go and burn my own flesh eather, but I have been know of
>>>>>taking a razor and cutting some stuff out of my foot... (No kiddig!)
>>>>>Also, I have not problems refraining from 'pleasures' in life and tend
>>>>>to pressure myself to hard... (only slept from 4:30 to 7:45 last
>>>>>night). So basically, the more difficult it gets for me, the more fun I
>>>>>have.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Since you do not plan to contribute to the project, I do not understand why rework would be an issue for you.
>>>>>
>>>>>I think that time could be spend better... I spend too little time with my better half...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>If I didn't have a car I couldn't get to work.  Public transportation here sucks and Cabs are $35 bucks a trip (hardly worth it).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I live out in the stix, the nearest store is about 5 miles away... I don't even think we have public transportation anywhere close!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I actually live reasonably out in the stix.  Although there is a gas station/conv store within a few miles.
>>>>>
>>>>>No gas for at least 6/7 miles.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I'm doing this in non-continuous blocks.  OKAY LETS GET ONE THING STRAIGHT.  MY PROBLEM IS NOT C++ its GCC.  And until you ACTUALLY look at GCC and at least ONE of the front end examples (which should take you all of 2 hours if your skill matches your gab), you've NO idea what I'm talking about.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Well thanks!
>>>>>>>Just point me to where I can find the stuff.
>>>>>>>I might REWRITE one of the front ends in C++. That would be an easy
>>>>>>>and quick way to go.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Then I'll be convinced.  With me, code speaks way louder than words.
>>>>>>I honestly hope you prove me a baffoon and make short
>>>>>>work of it.  From there, the stooge shall quietly take your example
>>>>>>and begin working out a way to plug the D front end onto it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>BTW, Ben mentioned he was insterested in doing the same thing, so you might want to utilize his assistance in the interest in saving time.
>>>>>
>>>>>Well, this is an open forum. Ben should be able to followup on this.
>>>>>I will check with him though.
>>>>>Thanks!
>>>>>Jan
>>>>
>>>>
>>

Jan Knepper wrote:

> Hi ben!
> When are you up to this as I am trying to squeeze that in to hopefully
> this weekend.
> Probably Sunday after church...
> Jan
> 

Not sure, if you find anything out let me know this weekend.. I will not be able to read this news group at home, so you will have to e-mail me if you need me.. ben@echotech.ca

Later

> 
> ben wrote:
> 
>> I would like to see d wipe the floor but the first step is to get it into linux.. So far nowone will help me build a c++ frontend but I am going to keep working at it..
>>
>> later, Ben
>>
>> andy wrote:
>>
>> > ben wrote:
>> >> I would like to point out that you can write crap in any language, its the languages that have the ability to write clean code are the good ones.. ie
>> >>
>> >
>> > yes
>> >
>> >> c, my god there is some bad c code, stuff that the copiler can't even
>> >> figure out enough to optimize it.
>> >> perl - well that is just an invitation for hackers, almost everybody i
>> >> know that use perl are programmers that like righting unreadable small
>> >> tight (tight is usually not the case, they just think it is) code,
>> >>
>> >
>> > yes
>> >
>> >> php - everybody I know  that program in php have this consept for
>> >> everything "Put it in an array, then parse array", that even happens
>> >> when looping though the results of a database. Every app have looked
>> >> though (well alot of them have this)
>> >> while (not the end of query) {
>> >>         put in array
>> >> }
>> >>
>> >> while not the end of array {
>> >>         do something
>> >> }
>> >> What is the point of that.
>> >>
>> >> c++ - overloading and inheratince does not have to be used in everything program like its the "function main()".
>> >>
>> >
>> > but it does.
>> >
>> > <snip/> (I read it but this has nothing to do with my issues with C)
>> >
>> > In my opinion, while C++ adding the concept of a class is nice, the
>> > other less useful but easily and frequently misused features extend,
>> > add onto and compound the problems of C, not improve them.  D leaves in
>> > the good stuff, adds other good stuff (garbage collection), then
>> > removes
>> > the nasty C++ additions.  This is why I do not like C++, but like D.
>> >
>> > PERL - I stated I also don't like PERL but find it less avoidable then C++.
>> >
>> > C - there is a time and place for C
>> >
>> > Java - expensive, but less problematic than C++
>> >
>> > This is way off topic... lets drop it and make D wipe the floor with them all (except PERL which will still be just the write tool for a quick advanced shell script)
>> >
>> > -Andy
>> >
>> >> Later, Ben
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Jan Knepper wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>>><kindly-scrolls-through-archive-and-repost-for-you/>
>> >>>
>> >>>Thanks!
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>>In article <3CF645E3.3030006@apache.org>, andy says...
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>>>1. http://cobolforgcc.sourceforge.net/cobol_14.html
>> >>>>>>2. http://www.eskimo.com/~johnnyb/computers/toy/
>> >>>>>>3.
>> 
>>>>>>http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc-3.1/gccint/Languages.html#Languages
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>The great thing is once we get some manner of framework for working with GCC, I think working with walters code should be easy.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>Project URL for anyone who missed it is at: http://sourceforge.net/projects/brightd -
>> >>>>>
>> >>>OK, did you try to compile Toy?
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>>>>>Why would it requires a specially compiled version of gcc? I think Walter's code would flow right throug g++ which also should be able to interface to the backend.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>You are in error.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>Simply Why?
>> >>>>
>> >>>>Look.  No amount of explaining on my part will convince you that this is not an elementary excercise, you need to see this on your own.
>> >>>
>> >>>OK, hopefully later this week.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>>>>So?  Who cares?  This is NOT about my C++ dislike.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>I don't, but dislikes usually make that you don't know alot about it. Just the few things you do not like, at least with me that's the case which than of course disabled you to do what you would like to do with it.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>No.  I do not profess to have many years of experience in C++ ( 2 ).
>> >>>>I have written mostly headless code in it (last think I remember
>> >>>>writting was an NT service).
>> >>>
>> >>>Well, if you would, you would put it on your resume or not???
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>>The reason I dislike C++ are the projects I've worked on with others.
>> >>>
>> >>>That's not C++'s fault...
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>>If I were coding strictly on my own or with
>> >>>>someone who writes as good of code as Walter does (only perhaps with
>> >>>>a bit more in the way of comments), then I'd find C++ adequate (like
>> >>>>I do
>> >>>>C).  The trouble is that I've never seen exsiting C++ code where
>> >>>>multiple people worked on it and it wasn't a horrible mess.
>> >>>
>> >>><g>
>> >>>I have, but it takes STRONG guidance and somebody really needs to
>> >>>define the style/rules, etc.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>>Do I know how to write a decent C++ program that is not a mess.  Yes, but C++ is a language which more adequately facillitates entropy.
>> >>>
>> >>>I know.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>>I've seen horrible software written in many languages, but the most horrible software I've seen was written in a mix of C++ and C, the second most horrible piece of software I've seen was written in VB. The afore mentioned C++ code utilized multiple inheritance in ways that would just hurt your head and I shan't describe it further because it still hurts my head to think of it.
>> >>>
>> >>>I've seen those things too. I call it "excessive C++" <g>
>> >>>This is not C++'s fault, but the designers...
>> >>>Of course C++ allows you to do it, which I think is great...
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>>For the record, I know PERL and use it when I need an advanced shell script, but I feel the same way about it as I do C++ for anything more substantial than a shell script.
>> >>>
>> >>>Don't know perl.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>>Consequently (and attempting to bring this irrelevant and offtopic conversation back on the subject), most of the things that I see as promoting software entropy in C++ are missing or greatly improved in D.
>> >>>
>> >>>Sure are.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>>>>>Well, I also have tried to compile the front end and as it seems there are header files missing. I have tried to create some fake once, but it would require some serious study as to see how it interfaces. Unfortunately I do not have the time for that at this moment.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>I got them from walter.  He didn't leave them out on purpose, and the others he left out because he didn't think them important.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>Could you put them on FTP please?
>> >>>>
>> >>>>Where?  I imagine he included them in the recent release.
>> >>>
>> >>>I'll give you a userid+passwd via private mail.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>>>>If C++ was all that great, then there would be no point in D..humm.
>> >>>>>>My
>> >>>>>>dislike for C++ is irrelevant.  If the C++ approach would work, I'd
>> >>>>>>not even have to necessarily code in C++ very much.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>I don't say C++ is that great. I just happen to like it and have
>> >>>>>quite a bit of experience with it.
>> >>>>>Indeed if the C++ approach works the whole project would make a lot
>> >>>>>more sense to me as no work is being redone. That's one thing I
>> >>>>>really do not like, not for myself nor others.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>I avoid working in C++ and therefore do not have a great deal of experience in it (2+ years).  I also do not have a great deal of experience burning my own flesh, although I've rubbed against hot pans on the stove by accident on a few accassions and once tripped and touched my finger to my bar-b-que grill, from this experience I feel fully qualified in saying that having one's flesh burnt seriously sucks and I will continue to avoid it (just like C++).
>> >>>
>> >>>That's comparing apples and oranges, but point taken.
>> >>>I would not go and burn my own flesh eather, but I have been know of
>> >>>taking a razor and cutting some stuff out of my foot... (No kiddig!)
>> >>>Also, I have not problems refraining from 'pleasures' in life and tend
>> >>>to pressure myself to hard... (only slept from 4:30 to 7:45 last
>> >>>night). So basically, the more difficult it gets for me, the more fun
>> >>>I have.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>>Since you do not plan to contribute to the project, I do not understand why rework would be an issue for you.
>> >>>
>> >>>I think that time could be spend better... I spend too little time with my better half...
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>>>>If I didn't have a car I couldn't get to work.  Public transportation here sucks and Cabs are $35 bucks a trip (hardly worth it).
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>I live out in the stix, the nearest store is about 5 miles away... I don't even think we have public transportation anywhere close!
>> >>>>
>> >>>>I actually live reasonably out in the stix.  Although there is a gas station/conv store within a few miles.
>> >>>
>> >>>No gas for at least 6/7 miles.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>>>>I'm doing this in non-continuous blocks.  OKAY LETS GET ONE THING STRAIGHT.  MY PROBLEM IS NOT C++ its GCC.  And until you ACTUALLY look at GCC and at least ONE of the front end examples (which should take you all of 2 hours if your skill matches your gab), you've NO idea what I'm talking about.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>Well thanks!
>> >>>>>Just point me to where I can find the stuff.
>> >>>>>I might REWRITE one of the front ends in C++. That would be an easy
>> >>>>>and quick way to go.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>Then I'll be convinced.  With me, code speaks way louder than words.
>> >>>>I honestly hope you prove me a baffoon and make short
>> >>>>work of it.  From there, the stooge shall quietly take your example
>> >>>>and begin working out a way to plug the D front end onto it.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>BTW, Ben mentioned he was insterested in doing the same thing, so you might want to utilize his assistance in the interest in saving time.
>> >>>
>> >>>Well, this is an open forum. Ben should be able to followup on this.
>> >>>I will check with him though.
>> >>>Thanks!
>> >>>Jan
>> >>
>> >>

Ok Thanks!
I'll be here this weekend. My better half is still away, not due back until
Monday.
I'll be reading the newsgroup... The server is sitting right next to my desktop!
<g>

Jan



ben wrote:

> Jan Knepper wrote:
>
> > Hi ben!
> > When are you up to this as I am trying to squeeze that in to hopefully
> > this weekend.
> > Probably Sunday after church...
> > Jan
> >
>
> Not sure, if you find anything out let me know this weekend.. I will not be
> able to read this news group at home, so you will have to e-mail me if you
> need me..
> ben@echotech.ca
>
> Later

> 
> The site is for the 'port' not for the approach.
> Jan
> 

If you guys are successful it won't be an issue.

-Andy

andy wrote:

> > The site is for the 'port' not for the approach.
> > Jan
> If you guys are successful it won't be an issue.

<g>
We better be successful than...
It's not really an issue isn't it???

Jan