On Thursday, 29 August 2013 at 19:18:48 UTC, H. S. Teoh wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 08:50:46PM +0200, Ramon wrote:
>
>> But there is a (possibly very small) but, too: Tango.
>> 
>> Maybe I'm simply mistaken but my impression so far is: There once
>> were 2 rt libraries, phobos and tango and (for whatever reason, no
>> judgement implied) phobos won and today with D2 it's D + phobos,
>> period.

The fight between Tango and Phobos was one that Tango was destined to lose. Phobos was the official library, backed by Walter, and Walter controlled the language.

The Tango people eventually gave up and decided to fork their own language, and most of the Tango fans went with them. Tango for D was effectively abandoned.

Tango for D was taken up by someone else and does run with the latest D2, but it is essentially a dinosaur.

> synonymous with "the D way" nowadays.

Is there an article on "the D way"? If not, maybe someone could put together a brief guide.

Regards
Jason

On Fri, Aug 30, 2013 at 06:48:33AM +0200, Jason den Dulk wrote: [...]
> The fight between Tango and Phobos was one that Tango was destined to lose. Phobos was the official library, backed by Walter, and Walter controlled the language.
> 
> The Tango people eventually gave up and decided to fork their own language, and most of the Tango fans went with them. Tango for D was effectively abandoned.

Oh? Is that fork still alive? I've never heard of this before.


> Tango for D was taken up by someone else and does run with the latest D2, but it is essentially a dinosaur.
> 
> >synonymous with "the D way" nowadays.
> 
> Is there an article on "the D way"? If not, maybe someone could put together a brief guide.
[...]

I don't know of any. I'd love to write one, but I don't feel qualified since I'm a relative newcomer to D. Probably one of the core devs would be more qualified.


T

-- 
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.

What you have said is mostly true and is also found on the old wiki:
http://prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?StandardLib

What is wrong is druntime is Tango's runtime adopted by Phobos. And later adopted by Tango again which is available through:
https://github.com/SiegeLord/Tango-D2

On 2013-08-29 21:36, Ramon wrote:

> Being as was, hase come to be and is, some cleaning might be desirable.
> Frankly, the only reason I didn't just click away Dstep is because it's
> *so* bloody important. Otherwise seeing "tango" somewhere makes me click
> away.
> OTOH binding C libraries being so bloody vital for D I feel we should a)
> "port" Dstep to phobos and b) advertise prominently, happily and loudly.

It's a shame that people here think of Tango like that. I'm sincerely asking: "What's so bad about it?". Especially when most people just see "Tango" and turns a way without knowing that it is. It's just another third party library.

-- 
/Jacob Carlborg

On 2013-08-30 07:05, H. S. Teoh wrote:

> Oh? Is that fork still alive? I've never heard of this before.

It's alive, last commit 8 days ago:

https://github.com/SiegeLord/Tango-D2

-- 
/Jacob Carlborg

On 08/30/13 07:05, H. S. Teoh wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 30, 2013 at 06:48:33AM +0200, Jason den Dulk wrote: [...]
>> The fight between Tango and Phobos was one that Tango was destined to lose. Phobos was the official library, backed by Walter, and Walter controlled the language.
>>
>> The Tango people eventually gave up and decided to fork their own language, and most of the Tango fans went with them. Tango for D was effectively abandoned.
> 
> Oh? Is that fork still alive? I've never heard of this before.

http://www.dsource.org/projects/tango/forums/topic/920

and it seems to be alive:

https://bitbucket.org/larsivi/amber/commits

artur

On Friday, 30 August 2013 at 04:48:35 UTC, Jason den Dulk wrote:
> The Tango people eventually gave up and decided to fork their own language, and most of the Tango fans went with them. Tango for D was effectively abandoned.

I knew there'd been bad blood created and some exodus from the community, but I never knew the Tango devs had created a language fork. Is it still active?

On Friday, 30 August 2013 at 06:48:55 UTC, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
> On 2013-08-29 21:36, Ramon wrote:
>
>> Being as was, hase come to be and is, some cleaning might be desirable.
>> Frankly, the only reason I didn't just click away Dstep is because it's
>> *so* bloody important. Otherwise seeing "tango" somewhere makes me click
>> away.
>> OTOH binding C libraries being so bloody vital for D I feel we should a)
>> "port" Dstep to phobos and b) advertise prominently, happily and loudly.
>
> It's a shame that people here think of Tango like that. I'm sincerely asking: "What's so bad about it?". Especially when most people just see "Tango" and turns a way without knowing that it is. It's just another third party library.

I understand your point and I understand that some reasonably
(from their perspective) perceive a lack of fairness.

My point of view, however, was that of a newbie. As such I won't
make my learning curve steeper by learning two "standard
libraries", which one to use when, etc.

And, you see, it's not just the lib, it's also about
documentation, compatibility, the eco system.

It might be helpful if you (or some tango guy) would explain
- why tango? What's better there than in phobos?
- what's the offering? (Is it a complete replacement for phobos?)
etc.

A+ -R

On Friday, 30 August 2013 at 08:26:10 UTC, Ramon wrote:
> On Friday, 30 August 2013 at 06:48:55 UTC, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
>> On 2013-08-29 21:36, Ramon wrote:
>>
>>> Being as was, hase come to be and is, some cleaning might be desirable.
>>> Frankly, the only reason I didn't just click away Dstep is because it's
>>> *so* bloody important. Otherwise seeing "tango" somewhere makes me click
>>> away.
>>> OTOH binding C libraries being so bloody vital for D I feel we should a)
>>> "port" Dstep to phobos and b) advertise prominently, happily and loudly.
>>
>> It's a shame that people here think of Tango like that. I'm sincerely asking: "What's so bad about it?". Especially when most people just see "Tango" and turns a way without knowing that it is. It's just another third party library.

Technically, there's nothing 'bad' about Tango. Its popularity was testimony to its sophistication. It was the way they went about it, forcing people to choose between it an Phobos, that is the problem. It split the community into two factions and damaged D's reputation. Amongst D1 veterans, there is still a lingering resentment that makes Tango more than just a third party library.


>
> It might be helpful if you (or some tango guy) would explain
> - why tango? What's better there than in phobos?

At the time, Tango had more stuff. What I liked about it was the stream library. It was very rich and made working with input/output very straightforward. Even today Phobos's I/O leaves something to be desired.


Regards

On 2013-08-30 10:26, Ramon wrote:

> I understand your point and I understand that some reasonably
> (from their perspective) perceive a lack of fairness.
>
> My point of view, however, was that of a newbie. As such I won't
> make my learning curve steeper by learning two "standard
> libraries", which one to use when, etc.

There is just a single standard library. I don't know how many times I have to say this: "Tango is just another third party library".

And as long as you don't compile DStep yourself you don't even have to know it uses Tango.

> - why tango? What's better there than in phobos?

In my opinion:

* Argument parsing
* XML package
* Net package (not any external dependencies)
* Zip package
* I think it has more collections
* Logging

> - what's the offering? (Is it a complete replacement for phobos?)

Yes, but you can use just what you want. As I said, I'm only using the argument parsing from Tango.

-- 
/Jacob Carlborg