Reading some posts about the D language here and there I found some opinion that D is not popular because it still did not find its kill features set and application domain.

What do you think about promoting D lang as a main development language for embedded, IoT, and real-time multimedia & automation applications?

Is D ready in its current state (including runtime, stdlib and side libraries) to follow the cross-compile way as a main method of its usage? (GDC/LDC)

Many decades the classical C and some limited set of C++ plays in this area, but nowadays embedded (Arduino, Raspberry, etc) raised its usage among hobbits and not so qualified and non-professional programmers and users. Maybe this directon can push the D language in its evolution and popularity, as people now needs some multiplatform optimizing compiler for rich and handy language but not so complex as classical C, or mbed/Arduino-like C++ dialects?

Also, under the more wide "cross-compile first" paradigm I mean that all D toolchains should be sharpened for building and testing projects transparently for multimple (and any if possible) hw/OS targets, at least for Windows[wine,mingw32/64]/Linux/MacOS running build under the same big-three hosts.

On Tuesday, 10 October 2023 at 06:39:14 UTC, Dmitry Ponyatov wrote:

>

Reading some posts about the D language here and there I found some opinion that D is not popular because it still did not find its kill features set and application domain.

What do you think about promoting D lang as a main development language for embedded, IoT, and real-time multimedia & automation applications?

Is D ready in its current state (including runtime, stdlib and side libraries) to follow the cross-compile way as a main method of its usage? (GDC/LDC)

Many decades the classical C and some limited set of C++ plays in this area, but nowadays embedded (Arduino, Raspberry, etc) raised its usage among hobbits and not so qualified and non-professional programmers and users. Maybe this directon can push the D language in its evolution and popularity, as people now needs some multiplatform optimizing compiler for rich and handy language but not so complex as classical C, or mbed/Arduino-like C++ dialects?

Go, Java, C#, F#, Rust are already there, with direct CPU vendor support in some of their SDKs.

Yes it would be nice to make D part of that list, however just like in other domains there is at least a decade of tooling to catch up with.

>

Go, Java, C#, F#,

on 20K RAM microcontroller? 8)

or on a Raspberry-like board controls some CNC machine or 3D printer in hard realtime?

>

Rust are already there,

maybe, but in my experience Rust totally unacceptable not only by newbies in home&hobby control, but even with people with more then twenty years of coding -- I mean in original post, that D can catch this market segment even comparing to C++

On Wednesday, 11 October 2023 at 00:45:40 UTC, Dmitry Ponyatov wrote:

> >

Go, Java, C#, F#,

on 20K RAM microcontroller? 8)

or on a Raspberry-like board controls some CNC machine or 3D printer in hard realtime?

>

Rust are already there,

maybe, but in my experience Rust totally unacceptable not only by newbies in home&hobby control, but even with people with more then twenty years of coding -- I mean in original post, that D can catch this market segment even comparing to C++

Imo D is ready. BetterC exists. ImportC exists. There's nothing stopping us.

On Wednesday, 11 October 2023 at 05:38:43 UTC, Imperatorn wrote:

>

On Wednesday, 11 October 2023 at 00:45:40 UTC, Dmitry Ponyatov wrote:

> >

Go, Java, C#, F#,

on 20K RAM microcontroller? 8)

or on a Raspberry-like board controls some CNC machine or 3D printer in hard realtime?

>

Rust are already there,

maybe, but in my experience Rust totally unacceptable not only by newbies in home&hobby control, but even with people with more then twenty years of coding -- I mean in original post, that D can catch this market segment even comparing to C++

Imo D is ready. BetterC exists. ImportC exists. There's nothing stopping us.

Also, this exists:
https://forum.dlang.org/thread/giigcnoyxfoxxaevjmxy@forum.dlang.org

And this:
https://wiki.dlang.org/Programming_in_D_tutorial_on_Embedded_Linux_ARM_devices

And this:
https://wiki.dlang.org/D_on_AVR

And this:
https://wiki.dlang.org/D_on_esp32/esp8266(llvm-xtensa%2Bldc)_and_how_to_get_started

And this is a good resource:
https://github.com/WebFreak001/avrd

Some extra reading:
https://github.com/JinShil/stm32f42_discovery_demo

On Wednesday, 11 October 2023 at 00:45:40 UTC, Dmitry Ponyatov wrote:

> >

Go, Java, C#, F#,

on 20K RAM microcontroller? 8)

Only on your dreams does D fit into a 20K controller, when even ISO C doesn't.

Yes, maybe with betterC there is a subset that one can make into it, but that isn't D, just like C dialects that fit into such controllers, full with language extensions aren't ISO C proper.

And yes, if dialects are allowed, there are also microcontroller versions.

>

or on a Raspberry-like board controls some CNC machine or 3D printer in hard realtime?

>

Rust are already there,

maybe, but in my experience Rust totally unacceptable not only by newbies in home&hobby control, but even with people with more then twenty years of coding -- I mean in original post, that D can catch this market segment even comparing to C++

Since a market reality check seems to be required, instead of me just telling they exist out there.

Java:

https://www.ptc.com/en/products/developer-tools/perc

https://www.aicas.com/wp/products-services/jamaicavm/

https://www.microej.com/product/sdk/

https://developer.itron.com/

Go:

https://www.withsecure.com/en/solutions/innovative-security-hardware/usb-armory

https://tinygo.org/

F# / C#:

https://www.wildernesslabs.co/

https://www.nanoframework.net/

Rust:

https://ferrous-systems.com/blog/announce-esp-training/

https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/t5/internet-of-things-blog/modernizing-embedded-development-on-azure-sphere-with-rust/ba-p/3699383

https://www.adacore.com/gnatpro-rust

https://www.windriver.com/products/vxworks/datasheet

Ada:

https://www.adacore.com/

https://www.ghs.com/products/ada_optimizing_compilers.html

https://www.ptc.com/en/products/developer-tools/apexada

https://www.ddci.com/products_score/

http://www.irvine.com/tech.html

http://www.ocsystems.com/w/index.php/OCS:PowerAda

http://www.rrsoftware.com/html/prodinf/janus95/j-ada95.htm

A not exhaustive list of production quality toolchains, some of them more than a decade in production and existing customer base.

On Tuesday, 10 October 2023 at 06:39:14 UTC, Dmitry Ponyatov wrote:

>

Reading some posts about the D language here and there I found some opinion that D is not popular because it still did not find its kill features set and application domain.

What do you think about promoting D lang as a main development language for embedded, IoT, and real-time multimedia & automation applications?

Is D ready in its current state (including runtime, stdlib and side libraries) to follow the cross-compile way as a main method of its usage? (GDC/LDC)

If we're talking about a a bare-metal real-time application in a microcontroller, honestly no. D can do this sort of thing but it's not currently it's strong area. You're almost without library support in those platforms. Phobos does work with -betterC (or generally without a full-featured DRuntime) but it means continuously dealing with all sorts of incompatibilities and corner cases.

However, if we're talking about something like Raspberry Pi embedded applications, I could see D being a much better option - I haven't tried myself though so listen to anyone who has.

On Thursday, 12 October 2023 at 07:06:15 UTC, Dukc wrote:

>

If we're talking about a a bare-metal real-time application in a microcontroller, honestly no. D can do this sort of thing but it's not currently it's strong area. You're almost without library support in those platforms. Phobos does work with -betterC (or generally without a full-featured DRuntime) but it means continuously dealing with all sorts of incompatibilities and corner cases.

That said, D is still a better choice than C in my opinion. But if the platform in question has a good standard library support in Java, C#, Python, Rust or Go, they are likely more practical.

On Thursday, 12 October 2023 at 07:06:15 UTC, Dukc wrote:

>

If we're talking about a a bare-metal real-time application in a microcontroller, honestly no. D can do this sort of thing but it's not currently it's strong area. You're almost without library support in those platforms. Phobos does work with -betterC (or generally without a full-featured DRuntime) but it means continuously dealing with all sorts of incompatibilities and corner cases.

First (and most importand) step to achieve support of bare-metal platforms is druntime implementation.

Before, I successfully implemented druntime hacks for checking possibility of work D (not betterC!) on STM32 platform ("Hello, world!" and druntime unittests are passed): https://github.com/denizzzka/d_c_arm_test

Unfortunately, without changes to the existing druntime code organization it seems to impossible to support different non-mainstream architectures. And, at first, this applies to embedded ones.

Therefore, please support (or give constructive criticism feedback) this initiative:
https://forum.dlang.org/post/jdfwovvqdcusjphehwzx@forum.dlang.org - this link explains everything in more detail
https://github.com/dlang/dmd/pull/15822 - here is PR with additional info