> not working yet, should I get a job as a programmer or not? If I start as a programmer, will people see me forever as a programmer or that image can change? (BTW, I'm having quite a lot of personal dilemmas in my life. Too

I've always been a "programmer" by profession, or by CV.
But I've long been thinking about doing some higher-level
thing now, I just don't really try it hard. But I'm sure
it's just up to me. People will see you the way you show
them yourself, so don't worry. It's pretty standard to
start programming and learn the stuff in the field, and
then later become an "experienced programmer", a senior
one, an architect, technical coordinator, or if you wish
to go that way, project manager etc. It all depends only
on what you want to develop yourself to be.

Sz.

"Luna Kid" <lunakid@neuropolis.org> escribió en el mensaje
news:bah395$e2c$1@digitaldaemon.com...
|
| I've always been a "programmer" by profession, or by CV.
| But I've long been thinking about doing some higher-level
| thing now, I just don't really try it hard. But I'm sure
| it's just up to me. People will see you the way you show
| them yourself, so don't worry. It's pretty standard to
| start programming and learn the stuff in the field, and
| then later become an "experienced programmer", a senior
| one, an architect, technical coordinator, or if you wish
| to go that way, project manager etc. It all depends only
| on what you want to develop yourself to be.
|
| Sz.
|

I guess your right. Thanks. That should cheer me up, shouldn't it? :D

————————————————————————— Carlos Santander


---
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In article <bah395$e2c$1@digitaldaemon.com>, Luna Kid says...
>
>> not working yet, should I get a job as a programmer or not? If I start as a programmer, will people see me forever as a programmer or that image can change? (BTW, I'm having quite a lot of personal dilemmas in my life. Too
>
>I've always been a "programmer" by profession, or by CV.
>But I've long been thinking about doing some higher-level
>thing now, I just don't really try it hard. But I'm sure
>it's just up to me. People will see you the way you show
>them yourself, so don't worry. It's pretty standard to
>start programming and learn the stuff in the field, and
>then later become an "experienced programmer", a senior
>one, an architect, technical coordinator, or if you wish
>to go that way, project manager etc. It all depends only
>on what you want to develop yourself to be.

There are several issues here. But before I go into that, I'll tell you about myself.

Already before college I knew that what I really want to
do is programming. I liked computers better than humans
for their logic and consistent behavior (I'd have loved
Spock as the next-door neighbor!)

I went to a technical university and passed our first programming course (Fortran) as both first and with the best score. This was in '77.

I had entered as a Machine Engineering Student, mainly
because I never knew there was a CS curriculum. However,
at the time this university (that today has a profound
reputation in CS) did have no computers! (zero, zilch,
nada!) Our programming assignments had to be punched
on Hollerith cards, and then, after applying for a 30
min session in the terminal room, we could dump them
to the next university by teletype and 110 baud modems.

If our program had any bugs (right, IF!), then the entire
session was useless, since you did not have enough time
to recode your stuff.

So we got used to table-top testing, the hard way.

Anyway, I always thought that having computers as a
profession would make them everyday, work, drudgery,
and boring. (Turns out I was right.)

So, after some interestin times, I went to a business
university, and eventually got my MSc. As it happens,
over there I was not interested in much else than
Administration and CS, so my thesis was about C++,
mainly because I was too lazy to do a serious thesis
about administration related issues. (This was the time
Andy Koenig popped into celebrity.)

I taught CS for 6 years at the university, managed the
student data base (Sun, Oracle), and started developing
a graphic language for communication between business
leaders (execs, CEOs, chairmen, consultants, managers,
etc.)

Then I started an Internet startup. We were going to
get $10,000,000 as start-up funding from a VC, but
sadly it was March 2000 before we got his signature.

Today I have the same company, but I've since fired
all staff, and I now do all the programming myself.

At this age (46), programming is not nearly as easy
as it used to be. Now I know why old people walk
slowly, why they can talk with you smoothly _as long_
as the issues are everyday, and why they seem to
totally miss the point if you try to introduce some
new concepts too suddenly into the discourse.

Sure, doing the old things goes as fast as ever. Talking,
driving a car (on known roads!), doing usual stuff is ok.
But I'd never venture into skate boarding, street
fighting, and I've quit playing pinball.

This all means that being a professional programmer is
not something you can do till you are 65, and retire.
Sooner or later (this varies) you have to give up,
(call it advance to managerial position). There your
experience and knowledge give you an edge on all the
young guys who run circles around you at the keyboard.

I know this gave no specific advice (and it shouldn't),
but maybe it illuminated some of the issues that one
may not think about at first hand?

Georg Wrede wrote:
> In article <bah395$e2c$1@digitaldaemon.com>, Luna Kid says...
> 
>>>not working yet, should I get a job as a programmer or not? If I start as a
>>>programmer, will people see me forever as a programmer or that image can
>>>change? (BTW, I'm having quite a lot of personal dilemmas in my life. Too
>>
>>I've always been a "programmer" by profession, or by CV.
>>But I've long been thinking about doing some higher-level
>>thing now, I just don't really try it hard. But I'm sure
>>it's just up to me. People will see you the way you show
>>them yourself, so don't worry. It's pretty standard to
>>start programming and learn the stuff in the field, and
>>then later become an "experienced programmer", a senior
>>one, an architect, technical coordinator, or if you wish
>>to go that way, project manager etc. It all depends only
>>on what you want to develop yourself to be.
> 
> 
> There are several issues here. But before I go into that,
> I'll tell you about myself.
> 
> Already before college I knew that what I really want to
> do is programming. I liked computers better than humans
> for their logic and consistent behavior (I'd have loved
> Spock as the next-door neighbor!)
> 
> I went to a technical university and passed our first
> programming course (Fortran) as both first and with the
> best score. This was in '77.
> 
> I had entered as a Machine Engineering Student, mainly
> because I never knew there was a CS curriculum. However,
> at the time this university (that today has a profound
> reputation in CS) did have no computers! (zero, zilch,
> nada!) Our programming assignments had to be punched
> on Hollerith cards, and then, after applying for a 30
> min session in the terminal room, we could dump them
> to the next university by teletype and 110 baud modems.
> 
> If our program had any bugs (right, IF!), then the entire
> session was useless, since you did not have enough time
> to recode your stuff.
> 
> So we got used to table-top testing, the hard way.
> 
> Anyway, I always thought that having computers as a
> profession would make them everyday, work, drudgery,
> and boring. (Turns out I was right.)
> 
> So, after some interestin times, I went to a business
> university, and eventually got my MSc. As it happens,
> over there I was not interested in much else than
> Administration and CS, so my thesis was about C++,
> mainly because I was too lazy to do a serious thesis
> about administration related issues. (This was the time
> Andy Koenig popped into celebrity.)
> 
> I taught CS for 6 years at the university, managed the
> student data base (Sun, Oracle), and started developing
> a graphic language for communication between business
> leaders (execs, CEOs, chairmen, consultants, managers, etc.)
> 
> Then I started an Internet startup. We were going to
> get $10,000,000 as start-up funding from a VC, but
> sadly it was March 2000 before we got his signature. 
> 
> Today I have the same company, but I've since fired
> all staff, and I now do all the programming myself.
> 
> At this age (46), programming is not nearly as easy
> as it used to be. Now I know why old people walk slowly, why they can talk with you smoothly _as long_
> as the issues are everyday, and why they seem to
> totally miss the point if you try to introduce some
> new concepts too suddenly into the discourse.
> 
> Sure, doing the old things goes as fast as ever. Talking,
> driving a car (on known roads!), doing usual stuff is ok.
> But I'd never venture into skate boarding, street fighting, and I've quit playing pinball.
> 
> This all means that being a professional programmer is
> not something you can do till you are 65, and retire.
> Sooner or later (this varies) you have to give up,
> (call it advance to managerial position). There your
> experience and knowledge give you an edge on all the
> young guys who run circles around you at the keyboard.
> 
> I know this gave no specific advice (and it shouldn't),
> but maybe it illuminated some of the issues that one
> may not think about at first hand?

It's funny to hear a 20 year old guy worrying about life at 30.  That's about the time when most guys careers are accelerating.  It's also good to know I'm not the oldest guy here.  But at only 39, I'm still seeing some changes.  I'm producing more and better code than ever in my life.  I'm also inventing more.  Our latest ASIC router stuff is so cool I can't stand that I can't publish it.

But it is definately getting harder.  For one thing, I don't seem to be able to find my mouse any more.  I hunt all over the screen for it. RedHat Linux 7.3 doesn't seem to have mouse-trails or big pointers.

I use to program 16+ hours a day for weeks at a time.  Now I tire after 8 hours.  If my head isn't clear in the morning, I might as well go home.

I also had to quit typing for 3 years after I wrote 20K lines of code in a month.  It messed up the nerve tunnels in my elbows.  Instead I had to program by voice, which is actually pretty hard.  After my daughter was born, and after I quit a stressful job, and after I switch to only laptop programming (which keeps my elbows straight), I recovered, and can type again.

It's good to develop alternate skills.  I've been really bad about this. So long as you're a valuable programmer, life will force you to code.  I suspect Georg, Walter, and I are all in this boat.  Good thing it's still fun.  Also, I notice that the three of us now code for our own companies that we founded.

I do know programmers who are highly productive in their 60's.  I hope to either be in this group, or in the retired rich SOB group.  Even better -- Both!  Sipping good scotch on a beach in Saint Bart... coding on my laptop... working on a new patent just for fun,  The most productive programmer I know is the foud. and offering useless advice to young guys.  Do I have to keep my wife in this dream, or can I substitute a 20-year old busty bomb-shell?  Maybe not.

The worst part of being a long-term focused techno-geek for me is the lack of development of human skills.  I actually look forward to chances to write (though I suck at it), sell stuff (again, I suck), and network with people.  Had I focused on that earlier, I think I would have made out really well during the web boom.  People skills rule.  So does good business sense.

I'll wager that the reason Georg, Walter, and I are still coding so hard is that we had no business skills whatsoever for a very long time.  For our sake, I hope we've learned some.  You don't really know for sure until you make a lot of $.

Whatever you do with your life, I'd recomend doing it intensly.  Don't do life half-heartedly.  Then, it'll probably work out ok.  I think when you're 30 looking back at yourself at 20, you'll see that you were clueless back then.  I find people discover who they are after college during their 20's.  I wouldn't worry about it too much before then. Just focus on what you're doing, and do it well.

How's that for a bunch of useless advice from a moron too young to give old-guy advice?  I guess still programming at even 39 makes me kind of old.

Bill

Bill, Georg, thanks a lot. It's been fun (even funny) to read.

Some comments embedded.

| Georg Wrede wrote:
| >
| > nada!) Our programming assignments had to be punched
| > on Hollerith cards, and then, after applying for a 30
| > min session in the terminal room, we could dump them
| > to the next university by teletype and 110 baud modems.
| >
| > If our program had any bugs (right, IF!), then the entire
| > session was useless, since you did not have enough time
| > to recode your stuff.
| >
| > So we got used to table-top testing, the hard way.

I've read a lot about those days. It just makes me remember how lucky I am. But then I think that next generations will have it even easier and I think I'm unlucky. j/k...

| >
| > So, after some interestin times, I went to a business
| > university, and eventually got my MSc. As it happens,
| > over there I was not interested in much else than
| > Administration and CS, so my thesis was about C++,
| > mainly because I was too lazy to do a serious thesis
| > about administration related issues. (This was the time
| > Andy Koenig popped into celebrity.)

Do they let you do things like that over there? I'm gonna have to switch universities. lol... Over here, to get your thesis approved, you have to actually pray the day before an audition in front of some important persons and convince them it's worth to do. But they're so close-minded that sometimes it's mission impossible.

| >
| > This all means that being a professional programmer is
| > not something you can do till you are 65, and retire.
| > Sooner or later (this varies) you have to give up,
| > (call it advance to managerial position). There your
| > experience and knowledge give you an edge on all the
| > young guys who run circles around you at the keyboard.
| >

That's what everyone tells me: you don't have to learn because you're going to do things, but because you have to know so you can lead. Problem is that I only have patience with my brother and my sisters, so when I'm in charge of something, people under my lead start to hate me. Is it too bad to be a perfectionist? Not that I am, but I hate it when my own class mates don't have a clue when I say "preprocess", get scared when I say "let's try something in Linux", etc.

"Bill Cox" <bill@viasic.com> escribió en el mensaje
news:3ECCBDA3.8070404@viasic.com...
|
| It's funny to hear a 20 year old guy worrying about life at 30.  That's
| about the time when most guys careers are accelerating.  It's also good

That's just the way I am: either I worry too much, or I don't worry at all.
I remember everything, or I remember nothing. I do it well, or I delete it
and forget I ever tried.
There's a huge difference, though. Over here, people who develop (and I mean
true professionals) hardly know more than VB, Java, C/C++, Oracle and SQL.
It's impressive for me to see all of you guys talk about so many languages.
Over here people don't even know (or care) about languages like Sather or
OCaml. At least I'm gonna learn (supposedly) Prolog and Lisp this semester.
But the worst thing is that they say C/C++ is too hard, so let's just stay
with VB or Java. And Linux, only for the big companies. My InterNetworking
teacher doesn't even know what FreeBSD is. So if you say "careers are
accelerating", it's not quite a truth down here. Sad thing is that just 3
hours away from here, in Brazil, people do care about those things. So
distances are getting even bigger. But that's not a computational problem,
but a social-political-cultural one.

| So long as you're a valuable programmer, life will force you to code.  I

Force. yuk. Awful word.

|
| I do know programmers who are highly productive in their 60's.  I hope
| to either be in this group, or in the retired rich SOB group.  Even
| better -- Both!  Sipping good scotch on a beach in Saint Bart... coding
| on my laptop... working on a new patent just for fun,  The most

lol! If you find a way to do that, let me know it. lol

|
| The worst part of being a long-term focused techno-geek for me is the
| lack of development of human skills.  I actually look forward to chances
| to write (though I suck at it), sell stuff (again, I suck), and network
| with people.  Had I focused on that earlier, I think I would have made
| out really well during the web boom.  People skills rule.  So does good
| business sense.

I've been heavily criticized for that, especially by my parents. But I don't think they're right: I'm not anti people. lol...

|
| Whatever you do with your life, I'd recomend doing it intensly.  Don't
| do life half-heartedly.  Then, it'll probably work out ok.  I think when
| you're 30 looking back at yourself at 20, you'll see that you were
| clueless back then.  I find people discover who they are after college
| during their 20's.  I wouldn't worry about it too much before then.
| Just focus on what you're doing, and do it well.
|

I know I'm clueless. I'm old enough to know that I'm not old enough to know things.

There's one big fat problem about doing things intensely: these teachers that I've had don't know how to teach. They think that we only have their classes and forget about the rest. So they tell us to do huge assignments and they're boring, unnecessary, pointless, etc. How can we do those things with heart? You see me doing vb2d translator, allegro library, sockets for linux, etc., but because I want to do it, not because someone tells me so. But that's just me.

One more thing: the minute you (all) think I'm making no sense, complaining too much, going OT too much, or anything like that, just tell me and I'll stick to D related stuff. I'll find another place to discharge. lol

-------------------------
Carlos Santander


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.483 / Virus Database: 279 - Release Date: 2003-05-19

Hi, Carlos.

> There's one big fat problem about doing things intensely: these teachers
> that I've had don't know how to teach. They think that we only have their
> classes and forget about the rest. So they tell us to do huge assignments
> and they're boring, unnecessary, pointless, etc. How can we do those things
> with heart? You see me doing vb2d translator, allegro library, sockets for
> linux, etc., but because I want to do it, not because someone tells me so.
> But that's just me.

The number one thing I look for in a resume is personal projects like these.  They indicate you love the work, not just the money.  The last guy we hired hacks everything, even his car.

As for teachers not knowing how to teach, I think it's a univeral problem.  I went to Berkeley, in California.  It was a big problem there, although I had several great teachers.  Even so, I learned a lot more from friends, and from hacking than I ever did in class.  That's another reason I look for personal projects.  If you did them, you probably learned twice as much as the other guys.

> One more thing: the minute you (all) think I'm making no sense, complaining
> too much, going OT too much, or anything like that, just tell me and I'll
> stick to D related stuff. I'll find another place to discharge. lol

I already checked, and it seems that people on this group don't mind much if we wander well off topic, although the OT prefix is apriciated.

Bill

"Sean L. Palmer" <palmer.sean@verizon.net> wrote in message news:bafc5k$1ons$1@digitaldaemon.com...
> One of the things people look for when hiring games programmers is people who can actually finish what they start.

Oh, drat. I've been working on the same program for 20 years now. It's still not done :-(

"Bill Cox" <bill@viasic.com> wrote in message news:3ECCBDA3.8070404@viasic.com...
> It's funny to hear a 20 year old guy worrying about life at 30.  That's
> about the time when most guys careers are accelerating.  It's also good
> to know I'm not the oldest guy here.  But at only 39, I'm still seeing
> some changes.  I'm producing more and better code than ever in my life.
>   I'm also inventing more.  Our latest ASIC router stuff is so cool I
> can't stand that I can't publish it.

All I have to do is look at the crud I wrote 20 years ago <g>.


> I use to program 16+ hours a day for weeks at a time.  Now I tire after 8 hours.  If my head isn't clear in the morning, I might as well go home.

I never did those kind of hours. Well, a few times, but the result was I always had to scrap it and rewrite it. It never worked for me to code when I was fatigued. The best coding I do is when I'm out jogging. I work it all out in my head, then just type it in later.


> I also had to quit typing for 3 years after I wrote 20K lines of code in a month.

I can't type for long periods, either. Learned to work around it.


> It's good to develop alternate skills.  I've been really bad about this. So long as you're a valuable programmer, life will force you to code.  I suspect Georg, Walter, and I are all in this boat.  Good thing it's still fun.  Also, I notice that the three of us now code for our own companies that we founded.

I'm in this because I enjoy doing it. I'm running my own business because nobody with any fiscal sanity would fund the development of D <g>.


>  I guess still programming at even 39 makes me kind of old.

39? You're just a young whippersnapper <g>.

Walter wrote:
> 
> "Bill Cox" <bill@viasic.com> wrote in message news:3ECCBDA3.8070404@viasic.com...
> > It's funny to hear a 20 year old guy worrying about life at 30.  That's
> > about the time when most guys careers are accelerating.  It's also good
> > to know I'm not the oldest guy here.  But at only 39, I'm still seeing
> > some changes.  I'm producing more and better code than ever in my life.
> >   I'm also inventing more.  Our latest ASIC router stuff is so cool I
> > can't stand that I can't publish it.
> 
> All I have to do is look at the crud I wrote 20 years ago <g>.
> 
> > I use to program 16+ hours a day for weeks at a time.  Now I tire after 8 hours.  If my head isn't clear in the morning, I might as well go home.
> 
> I never did those kind of hours. Well, a few times, but the result was I always had to scrap it and rewrite it. It never worked for me to code when I was fatigued. The best coding I do is when I'm out jogging. I work it all out in my head, then just type it in later.
> 
> > I also had to quit typing for 3 years after I wrote 20K lines of code in a month.
> 
> I can't type for long periods, either. Learned to work around it.
> 
> > It's good to develop alternate skills.  I've been really bad about this. So long as you're a valuable programmer, life will force you to code.  I suspect Georg, Walter, and I are all in this boat.  Good thing it's still fun.  Also, I notice that the three of us now code for our own companies that we founded.
> 
> I'm in this because I enjoy doing it. I'm running my own business because nobody with any fiscal sanity would fund the development of D <g>.
> 
> >  I guess still programming at even 39 makes me kind of old.
> 
> 39? You're just a young whippersnapper <g>.

I once tried to apply as an OldGeezer but am still not sure that I was
accepted:
   <http://www.usemod.com/cgi-bin/mb.pl?OldGeezers>

BTW I'm 47 now and I don't intend to retire. Programming (communicating with people and putting computers to work to their problems) is too much fun.

-- 
Helmut Leitner    leitner@hls.via.at
Graz, Austria   www.hls-software.com

"Helmut Leitner" <leitner@hls.via.at> wrote in message news:3ECF3AD5.7D7966AE@hls.via.at...
> BTW I'm 47 now and I don't intend to retire. Programming (communicating
with
> people and putting computers to work to their problems) is too much fun.

It's fun for me, too. I never liked being a manager. It's best to be what you are - your greatest chance of success lies that direction.