> There's just no way D will get a library comparable in breadth to .net and java in 2004. But I don't see that as necessary to the near term success
of
> D. However, I expect to see the emergence of tools to aid in getting existing C and C++ libraries to work with D. And that will help a lot.

Sorry for getting involved Walter, but I think you got it wrong here. I may not know very much about compilers, but having dealt with many different programmers in my career, the first thing they ask about a new language is:

"can I do X with this new language Y?"

For example, today I demonstrated to my colleagues a little demo I have made about colliding snooker balls, showing collision and reaction. The very first question was:

"In what language did you do it ?"

I replied:

"C++."

"Oh, I thought it was made with Macromedia."

The guy that asked came from a web design team.

The immediate question was:

"I see that C++ can do graphics, eh ? nice"

I did not tell him anything. I could not explain to him that there are so many options in C++ for doing graphics, and there is no standard!!!

My job is with defense/real-time applications (my company has a small department about that). Up until now, we used ADA and C++. Now, our contractor wants us to use Java!!! And we have, for about 2 years now.

Why do the military want to use Java anyway ? I will tell you why: because of the libraries. They told us that "the cost of porting an app or writing it in a language that does not directly support things like gui, threads or networking is much more than writing it in Java, even with the Java tradeoffs."

The moral of this story is that computing power is cheap, but computing labour is expensive. So, every little help matters, and having a first class library support for GUI and other important stuff is one of the primary concerns.

C++ is slowly being abandoned for this reason.

So, I don't think D, even if it is the richest, most elegant and easier programming language in the world, will succeed without standard libraries for what the modern developer wants.

.NET and Java have it, why not D ?

Finally, I was reading an interview with Stroustrup, where he said that C++ did not have a standard GUI library, because of two reasons:

1) at the time that it was developed, GUIs where not the primary user interface, at least in the not specialized section of the market.

2) there were no people willing to write a standard GUI, especially in the light of non-existing GUIs back then.

The above can be translated (by reading between the lines) as "I wish there was a standard GUI for C++, but, as the situation is right now, it will never be".

(I am mentioning GUI first because it is *the* most important thing; but there are also other functionalities to consider).

This is the best argument for Java I've heard yet , cost.  And unfortunately in the end , alot of times thats what it comes down to ( especially with the government ;) )

C
"Achilleas Margaritis" <axilmar@b-online.gr> wrote in message
news:bu24j2$1m5l$1@digitaldaemon.com...
>
> > There's just no way D will get a library comparable in breadth to .net
and
> > java in 2004. But I don't see that as necessary to the near term success
> of
> > D. However, I expect to see the emergence of tools to aid in getting existing C and C++ libraries to work with D. And that will help a lot.
>
> Sorry for getting involved Walter, but I think you got it wrong here. I
may
> not know very much about compilers, but having dealt with many different programmers in my career, the first thing they ask about a new language
is:
>
> "can I do X with this new language Y?"
>
> For example, today I demonstrated to my colleagues a little demo I have
made
> about colliding snooker balls, showing collision and reaction. The very first question was:
>
> "In what language did you do it ?"
>
> I replied:
>
> "C++."
>
> "Oh, I thought it was made with Macromedia."
>
> The guy that asked came from a web design team.
>
> The immediate question was:
>
> "I see that C++ can do graphics, eh ? nice"
>
> I did not tell him anything. I could not explain to him that there are so many options in C++ for doing graphics, and there is no standard!!!
>
> My job is with defense/real-time applications (my company has a small department about that). Up until now, we used ADA and C++. Now, our contractor wants us to use Java!!! And we have, for about 2 years now.
>
> Why do the military want to use Java anyway ? I will tell you why: because of the libraries. They told us that "the cost of porting an app or writing it in a language that does not directly support things like gui, threads
or
> networking is much more than writing it in Java, even with the Java tradeoffs."
>
> The moral of this story is that computing power is cheap, but computing labour is expensive. So, every little help matters, and having a first
class
> library support for GUI and other important stuff is one of the primary concerns.
>
> C++ is slowly being abandoned for this reason.
>
> So, I don't think D, even if it is the richest, most elegant and easier programming language in the world, will succeed without standard libraries for what the modern developer wants.
>
> .NET and Java have it, why not D ?
>
> Finally, I was reading an interview with Stroustrup, where he said that
C++
> did not have a standard GUI library, because of two reasons:
>
> 1) at the time that it was developed, GUIs where not the primary user interface, at least in the not specialized section of the market.
>
> 2) there were no people willing to write a standard GUI, especially in the light of non-existing GUIs back then.
>
> The above can be translated (by reading between the lines) as "I wish
there
> was a standard GUI for C++, but, as the situation is right now, it will never be".
>
> (I am mentioning GUI first because it is *the* most important thing; but there are also other functionalities to consider).
>
>
>

In article <bu1dbq$ebg$1@digitaldaemon.com>, C says...
>
>Cool can you send me the freeimage package ?  I use that for C++ also.
>
>C
>


Once I get home, I can share it. It's selfinstalling into the C:\ path, containing

etc.c.FreeImage        // the converted original header \dmd\lib\FreeImage.lib // the converted original lib \dmd\lib\freeImage.dll // somewhere we should store it :D

and

etc.freeImage          // a small D class and some functions \dmd\lib\freeImage.obj // the compiled version of it

usage:

import etc.freeImage;
// import etc.c.FreeImage; // if you need to

Image image = loadImage("stone.jpg");
or, in my case, i often need it as 32bit rgba =>
Image image = loadImage("stone.jpg").to32Bits();

and, for example in opengl:

glTexImage2D(
GL_TEXTURE_2D,
0,
GL_RGBA8,
image.width,
image.height,
0,
GL_RGBA,
GL_UNSIGNED_BYTE,
image.data
);


As i said: Once I'm at home.


I'm really interested in setting up a common source-share. An online etc where everyone can contribute. That way, we would quickly be able to addopt a lot of stuff.

Direct Ports of c libraries get plugged into etc.c.*, rewritten D style libraries for easy use in a modern way gets plugged into etc.*

I'd rewrite sdl and opengl to fit into that sheme, as well as I could finalize the FreeImage port.

Of course, there could be tons of stuff ported. But that way, nobody ports twice.

>I'm really interested in setting up a common source-share. An online etc where
>everyone can contribute. That way, we would quickly be able to addopt a lot of
>stuff.
>
>  
>

J C set up that d yahoo groups website http://groups.yahoo.com/group/d_lab.
But a specially built share-site (with more space), could be better.  Of course there's Benji's sourceforge like thing, but that'll probably be a while in coming.

-Anderson

"Achilleas Margaritis" <axilmar@b-online.gr> wrote in message news:bu24j2$1m5l$1@digitaldaemon.com...
> The moral of this story is that computing power is cheap, but computing labour is expensive. So, every little help matters, and having a first
class
> library support for GUI and other important stuff is one of the primary concerns.

I think you make a good point.

> C++ is slowly being abandoned for this reason.

I think C++'s biggest problem is the expense of training people to use it properly.

> So, I don't think D, even if it is the richest, most elegant and easier programming language in the world, will succeed without standard libraries for what the modern developer wants.

I agree that libraries are very important. But the first step is having a powerful language!


> .NET and Java have it, why not D ?

Why not indeed!

> (I am mentioning GUI first because it is *the* most important thing; but there are also other functionalities to consider).

What I'd like to have happen, rather than design a new GUI from scratch, instead take the best one out there and port it to D.

"J Anderson" <REMOVEanderson@badmama.com.au> wrote in message news:bu2trj$3146$1@digitaldaemon.com...
>
> >I'm really interested in setting up a common source-share. An online etc
where
> >everyone can contribute. That way, we would quickly be able to addopt a
lot of
> >stuff.
> >
> >
> >
>
> J C set up that d yahoo groups website
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/d_lab.
> But a specially built share-site (with more space), could be better.  Of course there's Benji's sourceforge like thing, but that'll probably be a while in coming.

What's happened to that? It's taken nearly as long as The D Journal to get going.

Benji, take one step forward. We need you. :)

>On one hand we have people say the
>library will never be enough to compete with .net , on the other hand you
>got people that don't want anything in the standard library.  My original
>stance was to remove platform specific components , but since its likely
>that wont happen , then lets adpot some usable win32 headers.

I want to have something that can compete with .Net. But .Net theortically doesn't depend on windows, while win32 has it even in it's name.

>You seem to have very limited vision.  Because you don't use its not an important language feature ?

What are you refering to?



>And refereing to another post, many of us use D on a daily basis.  I now use it more than C++ , perhaps you should start using it , maybe the actual use of the language will give you some insight.

That's a somewhat bad idea, isn't it? D just changes way too often. You couldn't finish any project without redoing almoast everything several times.

Anyway, I use it, but only for experimenting.

> That's a somewhat bad idea, isn't it? D just changes way too often. You
couldn't
> finish any project without redoing almoast everything several times.
>
"Matthias Becker" <Matthias_member@pathlink.com> wrote in message news:bu40qt$1o8i$1@digitaldaemon.com...
> >You seem to have very limited vision.  Because you don't use its not an important language feature ?
>
> What are you refering to?
>
>
>
> >And refereing to another post, many of us use D on a daily basis.  I now
use
> >it more than C++ , perhaps you should start using it , maybe the actual
use
> >of the language will give you some insight.
>
> That's a somewhat bad idea, isn't it? D just changes way too often. You
couldn't
> finish any project without redoing almoast everything several times.
>
> Anyway, I use it, but only for experimenting.
>
>

> That's a somewhat bad idea, isn't it? D just changes way too often. You
couldn't
> finish any project without redoing almoast everything several times.
>

Oops , yes that was a problem , as dig doesnt compile any more , nor do some other libraries , but with the standarization coming in March I think that'll take care of it.  If you keep your code up to date with each release ( which admittedly was a pain , but better to get the language right ) it wasnt that big a problem.

C
"C" <dont@respond.com> wrote in message
news:bu454o$1vfb$1@digitaldaemon.com...
> > That's a somewhat bad idea, isn't it? D just changes way too often. You
> couldn't
> > finish any project without redoing almoast everything several times.
> >
> "Matthias Becker" <Matthias_member@pathlink.com> wrote in message news:bu40qt$1o8i$1@digitaldaemon.com...
> > >You seem to have very limited vision.  Because you don't use its not an important language feature ?
> >
> > What are you refering to?
> >
> >
> >
> > >And refereing to another post, many of us use D on a daily basis.  I
now
> use
> > >it more than C++ , perhaps you should start using it , maybe the actual
> use
> > >of the language will give you some insight.
> >
> > That's a somewhat bad idea, isn't it? D just changes way too often. You
> couldn't
> > finish any project without redoing almoast everything several times.
> >
> > Anyway, I use it, but only for experimenting.
> >
> >
>
>