In article <cmrfgl$276n$1@digitaldaemon.com>, wisefriend@hotmail.cx says...
>
>I think you all might as well take a long, hard look at the truth:  D has no
>future.  There once was a
>language quite similar to D that had all the features one could ask for.  It
>seemed like the perfect
>sytems and application programming language -- high level with the ability to go
>low level when
>necessary.  Oh, it had garbage collection, generics, design by committe... you
>name it.  That language
>was called Modula 3.  It is now dead.  D aims for the exact same space as Modula
>3, that is to say, D
>aims to hide in one of the many crevices of computer history.  It's sad, really,
>to see such hard work all
>for naught.  You all might as well just give up now and start using C#.
>
>Yours truly,
>A Wise Friend
>
>

First, this comment is quite funny if you think of it.  It's the first time in a long time that any sort of flame bait has been cast into the depths of the teeming D fish pond.  Well, the flame won't last too long in these waters...pffff... ;-)

That said, Modula-3 has always fascinated me.  I think Modula-3 /is/ kind of like the "D" of Pascal-like languages;  when you look at the feature list and design goals of both languages, you begin to see it.

But I think the original poster missed a major point here.  His reasoning goes something like this:

1) Modula-3 and D have similar goals
2) Modula-3 and D have similar features
3) Therefore Modula-3 and D will share the same fate.

Is such a generalization always the rule for every endeavor?  No way!  If we want to generalize, then lets just say that any endeavor we attempt has the potential to end in failure.  If we were as shrewd as this poster, maybe we would realize that we should never attempt anything; that way we would never taste failure!  Voila! :-)

D has potential to succeed or fail.  So far I think it's made it far beyond Modula-3 in it's success and popularity.  D also trys to appeal to a huge crowd of C++ and Java developers, something a Pascal-like language like Modula-3 could never do.  The reason Modula-3 was "doomed" was for entirely different reasons.

Oops... I snapped at that flame bait!

- John

PS.  Modula-3 isn't dead. Neither is OS/2.  Oh and about Elvis ...

Hope this would not happen. It is sad that many beautiful languages indeed became toys.

People (at least in the open source community) need to start real projects using D. If nobody uses it... then it is not alive...

Some features in D look strange to me at first. This may stop some people (stupid like me) from switching to D. C++, Java and C# all have a string class. When I use it I know I am safe as long as I only envoke its methods. In some editors I press dot key and I can see all the safe methods to call. In D I am using a char array. I am scared to access its elements because I don't understand what is happening... am I sharing the array with somebody else? What methods are availabe on it?

Java and C# are not adding many stuff to C++. So they are extremely easy to learn for C++ developers. However I am scared reading D for days. It has TOO MANY new features for me to grab. When I use a language, I want to underdand every piece of it so that I will not write stupid code. I found I still don't understand D after days. This is more difficult for me to learn than Java or C#. I have a lot of questions and don't know where I can find an answer.


In article <cmrfgl$276n$1@digitaldaemon.com>, wisefriend@hotmail.cx says...
>
>I think you all might as well take a long, hard look at the truth:  D has no
>future.  There once was a
>language quite similar to D that had all the features one could ask for.  It
>seemed like the perfect
>sytems and application programming language -- high level with the ability to go
>low level when
>necessary.  Oh, it had garbage collection, generics, design by committe... you
>name it.  That language
>was called Modula 3.  It is now dead.  D aims for the exact same space as Modula
>3, that is to say, D
>aims to hide in one of the many crevices of computer history.  It's sad, really,
>to see such hard work all
>for naught.  You all might as well just give up now and start using C#.
>
>Yours truly,
>A Wise Friend
>
>

D migth become a as popular as C and Java or it migth not.
In case it will, everything is ok.
In case it won't, well there will always be people who think it is the best
programming language ever and write their programs in D. (like me!)

So even if D won't be the most widely used language it will never doom, as long as there are people working on it, and that is up to us.

My plan (somewhere in the future) is to write a translator D->Java and D->C++ and ofcourse Java->D and C++->D. It needs to be a pretty translator, generating a beautiful, easy to read code. So, if my boss want's a program written in Java, then I could write it in D and to translate it to Java and my boss will never know.

In my current workplace they don't want me to write in D because they say that they need a compatible code in a standard (that means C or Java) programming language. If we had this translator, that wouldn't be a problem. I could write D, and if and when needed they could translate it to Java (for example, if someone else is taking over my code, and this person does not want to use D)

I think that this translator is quite hard to make, but very rewarding.


I hope that D will become as popular as C and Java. D is very good language, it came later than C and Java, so it learned from their mistakes. And it is the only language with modern day features (like gc) that is not intepreted (as far as I know).

The problem of D is that it does not have a megacorporation supporting it
(C#-Microsoft, Java-Sun).

So hope for the best.



In article <cmsc3r$kko$1@digitaldaemon.com>, xjc says...
>
>Hope this would not happen. It is sad that many beautiful languages indeed became toys.
>
>People (at least in the open source community) need to start real projects using D. If nobody uses it... then it is not alive...
>
>Some features in D look strange to me at first. This may stop some people (stupid like me) from switching to D. C++, Java and C# all have a string class. When I use it I know I am safe as long as I only envoke its methods. In some editors I press dot key and I can see all the safe methods to call. In D I am using a char array. I am scared to access its elements because I don't understand what is happening... am I sharing the array with somebody else? What methods are availabe on it?
>
>Java and C# are not adding many stuff to C++. So they are extremely easy to learn for C++ developers. However I am scared reading D for days. It has TOO MANY new features for me to grab. When I use a language, I want to underdand every piece of it so that I will not write stupid code. I found I still don't understand D after days. This is more difficult for me to learn than Java or C#. I have a lot of questions and don't know where I can find an answer.
>
>
>In article <cmrfgl$276n$1@digitaldaemon.com>, wisefriend@hotmail.cx says...
>>
>>I think you all might as well take a long, hard look at the truth:  D has no
>>future.  There once was a
>>language quite similar to D that had all the features one could ask for.  It
>>seemed like the perfect
>>sytems and application programming language -- high level with the ability to go
>>low level when
>>necessary.  Oh, it had garbage collection, generics, design by committe... you
>>name it.  That language
>>was called Modula 3.  It is now dead.  D aims for the exact same space as Modula
>>3, that is to say, D
>>aims to hide in one of the many crevices of computer history.  It's sad, really,
>>to see such hard work all
>>for naught.  You all might as well just give up now and start using C#.
>>
>>Yours truly,
>>A Wise Friend
>>
>>
>
>

Lemme guess... I know you don't like it being called by name, but i think... Are you the same person we call "Kris"?

-eye^eye^eye

--
@}
~

In article <cmsc3r$kko$1@digitaldaemon.com>, xjc says...
>
>Hope this would not happen. It is sad that many beautiful languages indeed became toys.

Rather disappeared. See Sather.

>People (at least in the open source community) need to start real projects using D. If nobody uses it... then it is not alive...

It is being used. It is alive.

>Some features in D look strange to me at first. This may stop some people (stupid like me) from switching to D. C++, Java and C# all have a string class. When I use it I know I am safe as long as I only envoke its methods. In some editors I press dot key and I can see all the safe methods to call. In D I am using a char array. I am scared to access its elements because I don't understand what is happening... am I sharing the array with somebody else? What methods are availabe on it?

This is easy and has been covered by documentation very well. If you may not assume that you own the string, you should .dup it - this makes a copy you own and can permutate as you like.

Strings do not get processed by methods, they are processed either directly, or by free library functions (see std.string and others). All library functions which permutate strings return new *copies*. Library functions which only slice the strings may return a new copy, or may not - because slicing does not affect the original storage. Language built-in operations, such as .length and concatenation (~, ~=) return a new copy when they might otherwise touch the storage.

This is in fact fairly novel, and it may create some excess memory allocation cycling, but i believe it may be mostly optimized out later. And being used to it, it is in fact convenient. Getting to think of it, Java works similarly just it is much more restrictive, opaque, and less convenient.

>Java and C# are not adding many stuff to C++. So they are extremely easy to learn for C++ developers. However I am scared reading D for days. It has TOO MANY new features for me to grab. When I use a language, I want to underdand every piece of it so that I will not write stupid code. I found I still don't understand D after days. This is more difficult for me to learn than Java or C#. I have a lot of questions and don't know where I can find an answer.

The approach of D is to introduce language features, in the hope that they are easier to learn, recognize and maintain than library conventions (such as common in Java and C++) - and it seems to work very well. Mind you, it is extremely easy to write clueless code in C++ even if you seem know each and every feature of it - and we aim to avoid such traps in D.

Oh, and ask us if you have questions! Just please, take care *not* to do this in a thread called "D is dying" - you can gather some bad carma and start sending evil subliminal messages this way!

Suggested readings:

http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi
- contains a newbee faq. if your question gets answered in a newsgroup, please
add the question and the answer there.

http://www.dsource.org/tutorials/
- the URL says it.

And to all the "D will die" thing - as opposed to some less successful languages, D's decisions are in part made on the popularity factor, which sometimes means not perfect from the engineering point of view - C-like syntax is suboptimal to begin with. Some purists among us may not like it, but it will pay back when the language gets popular.

-eye

In article <cmsqh4$1eb3$1@digitaldaemon.com>, Ilya Minkov says...
>
>Lemme guess... I know you don't like it being called by name, but i think... Are you the same person we call "Kris"?
>
>-eye^eye^eye
>
>--
>@}
>~
>

Kris? That would be a surprise. He's one of the most prolific of D programmers here, though I know there's certain things about D that displease him...

I don't think he would interrupt his programming to make such a comment. :)

wisefriend@hotmail.cx wrote:
> I think you all might as well take a long, hard look at the truth:  D has no
> future.  There once was a language quite similar to D that had all the features one could ask for.  It
> seemed like the perfect sytems and application programming language -- high level with the ability to go
> low level when necessary.  Oh, it had garbage collection, generics, design by committe... you
> name it.  That language was called Modula 3.  It is now dead.  D aims for the exact same space as Modula
> 3, that is to say, D aims to hide in one of the many crevices of computer history.  It's sad, really,
> to see such hard work all for naught.  You all might as well just give up now and start using C#.
> 
> Yours truly,
> A Wise Friend
> 
> 

Ah yes, now I know. It just politics, isn't it? When someone gets an idea (for example let's say Marx) but someone executes in wrongly, all others are executing it wrongly as well!

Of course this is silly reasoning. Because one's ideas are to revolutionary for many to understand, it doesn't mean that it is deemed to fail, it just has a high potential to fail.

But look at the mailing list, look at CUJ, look around on www.dsource.org or some other site. Do you see D is failing, I don't.

Regards to the community (and by far not to our so called friend),
Sjoerd

A translator might be interesting... but I hope one day your boss will say "I want it in D".

gc is also the most wanted feature for me.


In article <cmsilo$111h$1@digitaldaemon.com>, Martin says...
>
>D migth become a as popular as C and Java or it migth not.
>In case it will, everything is ok.
>In case it won't, well there will always be people who think it is the best
>programming language ever and write their programs in D. (like me!)
>
>So even if D won't be the most widely used language it will never doom, as long as there are people working on it, and that is up to us.
>
>My plan (somewhere in the future) is to write a translator D->Java and D->C++ and ofcourse Java->D and C++->D. It needs to be a pretty translator, generating a beautiful, easy to read code. So, if my boss want's a program written in Java, then I could write it in D and to translate it to Java and my boss will never know.
>
>In my current workplace they don't want me to write in D because they say that they need a compatible code in a standard (that means C or Java) programming language. If we had this translator, that wouldn't be a problem. I could write D, and if and when needed they could translate it to Java (for example, if someone else is taking over my code, and this person does not want to use D)
>
>I think that this translator is quite hard to make, but very rewarding.
>
>
>I hope that D will become as popular as C and Java. D is very good language, it came later than C and Java, so it learned from their mistakes. And it is the only language with modern day features (like gc) that is not intepreted (as far as I know).
>
>The problem of D is that it does not have a megacorporation supporting it
>(C#-Microsoft, Java-Sun).
>
>So hope for the best.
>
>
>
>In article <cmsc3r$kko$1@digitaldaemon.com>, xjc says...
>>
>>Hope this would not happen. It is sad that many beautiful languages indeed became toys.
>>
>>People (at least in the open source community) need to start real projects using D. If nobody uses it... then it is not alive...
>>
>>Some features in D look strange to me at first. This may stop some people (stupid like me) from switching to D. C++, Java and C# all have a string class. When I use it I know I am safe as long as I only envoke its methods. In some editors I press dot key and I can see all the safe methods to call. In D I am using a char array. I am scared to access its elements because I don't understand what is happening... am I sharing the array with somebody else? What methods are availabe on it?
>>
>>Java and C# are not adding many stuff to C++. So they are extremely easy to learn for C++ developers. However I am scared reading D for days. It has TOO MANY new features for me to grab. When I use a language, I want to underdand every piece of it so that I will not write stupid code. I found I still don't understand D after days. This is more difficult for me to learn than Java or C#. I have a lot of questions and don't know where I can find an answer.
>>
>>
>>In article <cmrfgl$276n$1@digitaldaemon.com>, wisefriend@hotmail.cx says...
>>>
>>>I think you all might as well take a long, hard look at the truth:  D has no
>>>future.  There once was a
>>>language quite similar to D that had all the features one could ask for.  It
>>>seemed like the perfect
>>>sytems and application programming language -- high level with the ability to go
>>>low level when
>>>necessary.  Oh, it had garbage collection, generics, design by committe... you
>>>name it.  That language
>>>was called Modula 3.  It is now dead.  D aims for the exact same space as Modula
>>>3, that is to say, D
>>>aims to hide in one of the many crevices of computer history.  It's sad, really,
>>>to see such hard work all
>>>for naught.  You all might as well just give up now and start using C#.
>>>
>>>Yours truly,
>>>A Wise Friend
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

I really appreciate your post.

A thread of "D is dying" may not be bad because it brings up discussion of D's future and direction, and gives you a chance to convince people.


In article <cmss6q$1ggn$1@digitaldaemon.com>, Ilya Minkov says...
>
>In article <cmsc3r$kko$1@digitaldaemon.com>, xjc says...
>>
>>Hope this would not happen. It is sad that many beautiful languages indeed became toys.
>
>Rather disappeared. See Sather.
>
>>People (at least in the open source community) need to start real projects using D. If nobody uses it... then it is not alive...
>
>It is being used. It is alive.
>
>>Some features in D look strange to me at first. This may stop some people (stupid like me) from switching to D. C++, Java and C# all have a string class. When I use it I know I am safe as long as I only envoke its methods. In some editors I press dot key and I can see all the safe methods to call. In D I am using a char array. I am scared to access its elements because I don't understand what is happening... am I sharing the array with somebody else? What methods are availabe on it?
>
>This is easy and has been covered by documentation very well. If you may not assume that you own the string, you should .dup it - this makes a copy you own and can permutate as you like.
>
>Strings do not get processed by methods, they are processed either directly, or by free library functions (see std.string and others). All library functions which permutate strings return new *copies*. Library functions which only slice the strings may return a new copy, or may not - because slicing does not affect the original storage. Language built-in operations, such as .length and concatenation (~, ~=) return a new copy when they might otherwise touch the storage.
>
>This is in fact fairly novel, and it may create some excess memory allocation cycling, but i believe it may be mostly optimized out later. And being used to it, it is in fact convenient. Getting to think of it, Java works similarly just it is much more restrictive, opaque, and less convenient.
>
>>Java and C# are not adding many stuff to C++. So they are extremely easy to learn for C++ developers. However I am scared reading D for days. It has TOO MANY new features for me to grab. When I use a language, I want to underdand every piece of it so that I will not write stupid code. I found I still don't understand D after days. This is more difficult for me to learn than Java or C#. I have a lot of questions and don't know where I can find an answer.
>
>The approach of D is to introduce language features, in the hope that they are easier to learn, recognize and maintain than library conventions (such as common in Java and C++) - and it seems to work very well. Mind you, it is extremely easy to write clueless code in C++ even if you seem know each and every feature of it - and we aim to avoid such traps in D.
>
>Oh, and ask us if you have questions! Just please, take care *not* to do this in a thread called "D is dying" - you can gather some bad carma and start sending evil subliminal messages this way!
>
>Suggested readings:
>
>http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi
>- contains a newbee faq. if your question gets answered in a newsgroup, please
>add the question and the answer there.
>
>http://www.dsource.org/tutorials/
>- the URL says it.
>
>And to all the "D will die" thing - as opposed to some less successful languages, D's decisions are in part made on the popularity factor, which sometimes means not perfect from the engineering point of view - C-like syntax is suboptimal to begin with. Some purists among us may not like it, but it will pay back when the language gets popular.
>
>-eye
>
>

Allow me to sum up your post, oh wise one.
> -5 Flamebait

I don't usually reply to trolls, but this time I'll bite.

D can easily stay an 'exotic' langauge, or have a limited following from here on, but that's history's job to tell.  As it stands, it has enjoyed a steady line of growth and and is becoming more mature all the time, within its own specification.

I honestly feel that D will live and die by the community that supports it, as it  lacks corporate and/or mainstream adoption at this time.  And on the basis of that relationship, I doubt that it'll go to that great bitbucket in the sky anytime soon (if ever).


- Pragma (ericanderton -at- yahoo)