On 2/11/17 5:04 AM, bachmeier wrote:
> On Friday, 10 February 2017 at 23:02:38 UTC, Dmitry Olshansky wrote:
>> Go - they value simplicity and robust run-time (Go's GC breaks news
>> with sub-milisecond pauses on large heaps). The sheer complexity of D
>> is enough for it to be a hard sell, D's GC is coup de grace.
>
> I have never understood the appeal of Go. With respect to the GC,
> there's this:
> https://blog.plan99.net/modern-garbage-collection-911ef4f8bd8e#.o6pxesvuw
>

Has nothing new to say, yes GO's GC fragments heap, is slower at allocation and adds "read/write barriers from hell". But it does optimize for short pauses, which in turn avoids ugly spikes in server workloads and that is priceless. I have had the pleasure of trying to "tune away" the GC spikes of Java cluster software - it's not pleasant.


> With respect to "simplicity", I found it to be easy to learn a language
> that makes it hard to get stuff done. I've never understood the argument
> that programming in Go is simple. Clearly others have their own view.

I agree with your view on this one. Go puts both advanced and novice programmers on the same ground - both have to write dumb code with little to no abstraction. In my limited time with Go I found it futile to abstract away even the most trivial patterns such as map-reduce with concurrency.

---
Dmitry Olshansky

On Wednesday, 8 February 2017 at 18:27:57 UTC, Ilya Yaroshenko wrote:
> 1. Why your company uses  D?
>
>   a. D is the best
>   b. We like D
>   c. I like D and my company allowed me to use D
>   d. My head like D
>   e. Because marketing reasons
>   f. Because my company can be more efficient with D for some tasks then with any other system language
>
A.
My on the way to be legalized personal (dictatorship :) ) business is using D and vibed. I'm developing a platform like pinterest but different audience (local). I'm in Ghana (West Africa) so I bearly know any D coder. It did not use php (the short path) for long term performance and clean code base...  D is just the right tool for it. I'm more of a practical coder (immediate solution) than GC, @safe, betterC advocate.
> 2. Does your company uses C/C++, Java, Scala, Go, Rust?
>
Nope. Not interested
> 3. If yes, what the reasons to do not use D instead?
>
> 2. Have you use one of the following Mir projects in production:
>
>   a. https://github.com/libmir/mir
>   b. https://github.com/libmir/mir-algorithm
>   c. https://github.com/libmir/mir-cpuid
>   d. https://github.com/libmir/mir-random
>   e. https://github.com/libmir/dcv - D Computer Vision Library
>   f. std.experimental.ndslice
>
> 3. If Yes, can Mir community use your company's logo in a section "Used by" or similar.
>
Not having need for any of them ATM.
> 4. Have you use one of the following Tamedia projects in your production:
>
>   a. https://github.com/tamediadigital/asdf
>   b. https://github.com/tamediadigital/je
>   c. https://github.com/tamediadigital/lincount
>
No. You were maintaining the s3 lib which is now frozen. But that's my take. Performance is tomorrow's problem.
> 5. What D misses to be commercially successful languages?
>
To me, is not the technical detail but what I can do with it. Its libs. Image and video processes, storage apis (minio, s3, swift, etc.), db libraries. Real-world everyday problems.
> 6. Why many topnotch system projects use C programming language nowadays?
>
> =========================
No comment
>
> All my current D project are finished. Probably I will use other languages for production this year, Java/Go/whatever. Mir libraries are amazing and good quality. If you use them this would be a good motivation for us to improve the docs and provide regular updates. Plus, it can be enchanted during the GSoC 2017.


Lack of An improved and tested s3 compatible api is much the deal breaker at the moment for me. Object storage (cloud) is the way forward. Docker, k8s, etc. are all the driving forces. S3 being the pioneer in object storage has moved most of them to support s3 apis (Minio for instance is a driving force for using Go lang in containerized storage and computing.).

I rather urge community to focus [some] attention on everyday demands. And take them by storm with D. Its not a lang problem ... JavaScript is top cus its useful (not efficient).
>
> Thanks,
> Ilya

On Wednesday, 8 February 2017 at 18:27:57 UTC, Ilya Yaroshenko wrote:
1. a + d + new projects
2. C++ + Python
3. Beacause of D strength with LDC
>4. Have you use one of the following Mir projects in production:
  No. The lack of numeric methods. To Ilya personally: if you try to realize primitive and fast Gauss you see you don't need anything from Mir. It is good work for diplom work.
>...
> 5. What D misses to be commercially successful languages?
IDE only. But I have found Visual D pretty enough. D reminds me Watcom C++. Debugging tools are for loosers :)
>...

Igor Shirkalin

On Thursday, 9 February 2017 at 20:12:06 UTC, Joseph Rushton Wakeling wrote:
> Out of curiosity: is it typical that it would not post until some way into the discussion (as in that example)?  I could see why it would be irritating if it popped up once discussion and review had already started happening.

We enabled it at this point and thus the mention-bot hasn't had a comment for this PR.
This was simply the first PR I found.

> Assuming that the bot can be relied on to be 'first responder' to any PR

Yes, It safely be relied on this fact (it uses Vibe.d).
Moreover, the dlang-bot updates its comment on every new PR event.

> I'm happy to try to draft an alternative text for it to post (and maybe also look at what texts it can link to).

Thanks a lot for pushing this!
Let's move this discussion over to the dlang-bot:

https://github.com/dlang-bots/dlang-bot/pull/44

Le 08/02/2017 à 19:27, Ilya Yaroshenko a écrit :
I can answer for the product on which I am working (Home Design 3D), others are video games made with Unity which is imposed by the editor.

On Home Design 3D the development teams have the choice of technologies to use, but we have to convince our boss. There is an history, any developer on previous teams knows the D language, we are now 2 on 6 that having few basics.

> 1. Why your company uses  D?
>
>   a. D is the best
>   b. We like D
>   c. I like D and my company allowed me to use D
>   d. My head like D
>   e. Because marketing reasons
>   f. Because my company can be more efficient with D for some tasks then
> with any other system language
>

We don't use D.

> 2. Does your company uses C/C++, Java, Scala, Go, Rust?

C++11, other languages as Java or objective-C can be used for OS specifics (Android and iOS).

>
> 3. If yes, what the reasons to do not use D instead?

There is a lot of obstacles to migrate to D or at least using it partially in our product or for tools.
Here is the list sorted by difficulties:
1. The team isn't enough familiar with the D language
2. It seems too hard to use it with our actual C++ dependencies (QtQuick, boost geometry, and a lot of other C/C++ libraries)
3. We don't have enough feedback on how it can be used on all our targeted platforms (Android, iOS, Windows x86 and x64, MacOS)
4. Due to some differences with the c++ major refactoring will be necessary after a translation to have the same performances (GC will impact a lot the resources management)
5. The quality of the possible integration with a complete production ecosystem is unknown.
  IDE : Debugging, refactoring
  Platforms : Compatibility with Stores (and there tools such as crash reporting,...)
6. D isn't as mature as C++, so there is fewer articles on internet that can help on particular subjects. And no body will give code examples in D, so even for test we would have to port it. This will globally impact the productivity.

>
> 2. Have you use one of the following Mir projects in production:
>
>   a. https://github.com/libmir/mir
>   b. https://github.com/libmir/mir-algorithm
>   c. https://github.com/libmir/mir-cpuid
>   d. https://github.com/libmir/mir-random
>   e. https://github.com/libmir/dcv - D Computer Vision Library
>   f. std.experimental.ndslice
>

Nop

> 3. If Yes, can Mir community use your company's logo in a section "Used
> by" or similar.
>
> 4. Have you use one of the following Tamedia projects in your production:
>
>   a. https://github.com/tamediadigital/asdf
>   b. https://github.com/tamediadigital/je
>   c. https://github.com/tamediadigital/lincount
>
> 5. What D misses to be commercially successful languages?

I think that it start with a bigger adoption, but it can be addressed directly, so it have to easy to take into. IMO documentation IDE friendly-ness,... will help newbie to start.
After tools necessary to have stable and effective products are critical, debugger (code and memory), profiler,... On this point to IMO the ergonomic is important (not every developer want to use command line and a lot would prefer UI).

I also think that it depends who is the target, because Java developers will be certainly more reticent to come to D if tools don't have good UI than C/C++ developers that works mostly under linux.

Personally I develop only under Windows and having a great integration between D tools with UI is one of the most important thing. I want an IDE that is ready for use after installation, with dub integrated, unit tests UI, compilers and debuggers configured and ready for cross compilation.

>
> 6. Why many topnotch system projects use C programming language nowadays?

IMO the fact that C is one of the first language helps a lot, languages that came after few or any are system languages.
I find that C/C++ didn't evolve a lot for many years and it start to come better with C++11, 14 and 17. Maybe D have put some pressure.

I don't know a lot of languages but I think that D have the potential to be a much better system language than C++, and it should be else nobody will migrate if the win isn't enough.

>
> =========================
>
> All my current D project are finished. Probably I will use other
> languages for production this year, Java/Go/whatever. Mir libraries are
> amazing and good quality. If you use them this would be a good
> motivation for us to improve the docs and provide regular updates. Plus,
> it can be enchanted during the GSoC 2017.
>
> Thanks,
> Ilya
>

On 02/09/2017 03:02 AM, Walter Bright wrote:
>
> It took me a while to find it, because you were using a pseudonym that I
> did not recognize. There are a number of frequent contributors to D
> using pseudonyms, and all have this issue with varying degrees.
>[...]
> I suppose I could write a cheat sheet and tape it to the wall of my
> office, but why not just use your name?
>

Partly because I just like online handles. Also, brevity: "Sabalausky" is a bit of a monster and also tends to intimidate the crap out anyone trying to pronounce it (and very understandably so). "Abscissa" is shorter than my last name alone, easier to spell, plus I've been using it for about 20 years, so it's kind of just habit now and almost just as much a name to me online as "Nick". Not that it's much easier to pronounce (except for those well-versed in uncommonly-used math terminology), but it's probably at least a little less panic-inducing, pronunciation-wise ;)

And online (in general anyway), I like that "Abscissa" is less uniquely-identifiable than my name - unlike my name, there actually ARE other people going by "Abscissa". I like having my online identity split into multiple ones, and I like the lack of clarity as to which "Abscissa" fellas are the same ones: It creates privacy in a frontier that is increasingly "privatized big brother". Reliably-unique real names like mine are a data miner's dream - may as well be going by my social security number. Unlike "Abscissa", anyone going by "Nick Sabalausky" is either me or somebody deliberately impersonating me.

In any case, your point is certainly a valid one. I've adjusted my newsreader to include Abscissa along with my real name, so hopefully that will at least help.

On Wednesday, 8 February 2017 at 18:27:57 UTC, Ilya Yaroshenko wrote:
> 1. Why your company uses  D?
>
>   a. D is the best
>   b. We like D
>   c. I like D and my company allowed me to use D
>   d. My head like D
>   e. Because marketing reasons
>   f. Because my company can be more efficient with D for some tasks then with any other system language

We don't use D. But IMO, D is the best PL with it's amazing compile time features (templates, templates everywhere and still it can be maintainable).

> 2. Does your company uses C/C++, Java, Scala, Go, Rust?

C, C++, C#, Java

> 3. If yes, what the reasons to do not use D instead?

1. For algorithms: We develop biometric algorithms and create shared objects and DLLs. We need these to be used on variety of platforms interfacing with various languages like C++, C#, Java, Go. D makes it impossible to convince teams that develop algorithms.

2. For applications/solutions: An year ago we evaluated D (to replace C++) for one of our large scale distributed solution (map-reduce for biometrics). But ended up developing it in C++ for the following reasons:
a) Lack of high quality libraries like Boost/Qt. With the horrible template syntax of C++, people created Boost and helped shape C++ what it is now. D is pleasant to program with and I'm wondering why there is no such comprehensive set of libraries in D.
b) GC. We fill pretty much the entire RAM (>=128 GB) with data and operate on it. The end-to-end system latency must be in milliseconds and also provide high throughput. Not really an option with D's current state of GC.
c) IDE support.
d) We have already got used to the warts of C++, Java and we know how to avoid them. It is fair for us to ask the team to learn D, but not *ignore X and get used to it* as well.

D tries to compete and satisfy all paradigms (recently trying to catch-up with Rust's safety feature) which is good from a language point of view. But it could also focus on fixing it's base.

> 2. Have you use one of the following Mir projects in production:

No.

> 4. Have you use one of the following Tamedia projects in your production:

No.

> 5. What D misses to be commercially successful languages?

a) Good quality libraries
b) Cross platform IDE
c) Corporate backup
c) Vibrant community. IMHO, the lack of good quality libraries can be directly attributed to the lack of critical mass of topnotch brains in the community.

> 6. Why many topnotch system projects use C programming language nowadays?

a) Good quality libraries
b) Small run-time
c) Cross platform IDE
d) People are already familiar with C/C++

On Wednesday, 8 February 2017 at 18:27:57 UTC, Ilya Yaroshenko wrote:
> 1. Why your company uses  D?
>
>   a. D is the best
>   b. We like D
>   c. I like D and my company allowed me to use D
>   d. My head like D
>   e. Because marketing reasons
>   f. Because my company can be more efficient with D for some tasks then with any other system language

No, my company does not use D.

>
> 2. Does your company uses C/C++, Java, Scala, Go, Rust?

C#, C++, Java - ordered by %usage

>
> 3. If yes, what the reasons to do not use D instead?

- no decimal data type;
- no i18n;
- no GUI;
- IDE support;
- lack of "batteries included" experience;


We are following D for long time. The initial idea was "Look, ma', there is something like C# that compiles to native". Once Tango (which looks a lot like C# standard library) was dropped and was replaced by phobos, my team lost the interest, I'm the only one right now using D for pet projects.

>
> 2. Have you use one of the following Mir projects in production:
>
>   a. https://github.com/libmir/mir
>   b. https://github.com/libmir/mir-algorithm
>   c. https://github.com/libmir/mir-cpuid
>   d. https://github.com/libmir/mir-random
>   e. https://github.com/libmir/dcv - D Computer Vision Library
>   f. std.experimental.ndslice
>

Most of the apps we develop are in the financial domain. Didn't find any use.

> 3. If Yes, can Mir community use your company's logo in a section "Used by" or similar.
>
> 4. Have you use one of the following Tamedia projects in your production:
>
>   a. https://github.com/tamediadigital/asdf
>   b. https://github.com/tamediadigital/je
>   c. https://github.com/tamediadigital/lincount
>
> 5. What D misses to be commercially successful languages?

- IDE;
- IDE;
- IDE;

>
> 6. Why many topnotch system projects use C programming language nowadays?
>

I truly don't know.
>
> Thanks,
> Ilya