Matthew wrote:
> "Walter" <newshound@digitalmars.com> wrote in message news:cu1ije$vic$1@digitaldaemon.com...
> 
>>"John Reimer" <brk_6502@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>news:cu06pa$2opo$1@digitaldaemon.com...
>>
>>>rookie >:< wrote:
>>>
>>>>In article <ctud8s$10pp$1@digitaldaemon.com>, clayasaurus says...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Just curious, how did you learn about the D programming language?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Some guy placed a flyer in the local library here in Jacksonville, NC.
>>
>>The
>>
>>>>librarian said she thought he was a Marine but she couldn't remember his
>>
>>name.
>>
>>>>Anyways, I just thought I'd check it out.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>Ha!  I wonder if that was our friendly Marine, Andrew Edwards.  I don't
>>>know if he's from that area or not.  But if so, good for him!
>>
>>Andrew has been indefatigable at helping people get to know about D. He
>>tries things I'd never think of!
> 
> 
> Maybe we can get him to publicise "D Programming Distilled"? (And maybe "Imperfect C++" !?)
> 
>  :-)
> 
> 
> 

He'd be the guy for the job!

- John R.

PS.  Are you charging more for autographed copies?  I'd like one (or two). :-)

"John Reimer" <brk_6502@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:cu1qu7$16gl$1@digitaldaemon.com...
> Matthew wrote:
>> "Walter" <newshound@digitalmars.com> wrote in message news:cu1ije$vic$1@digitaldaemon.com...
>>
>>>"John Reimer" <brk_6502@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:cu06pa$2opo$1@digitaldaemon.com...
>>>
>>>>rookie >:< wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>In article <ctud8s$10pp$1@digitaldaemon.com>, clayasaurus says...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Just curious, how did you learn about the D programming language?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Some guy placed a flyer in the local library here in Jacksonville, NC.
>>>
>>>The
>>>
>>>>>librarian said she thought he was a Marine but she couldn't remember his
>>>
>>>name.
>>>
>>>>>Anyways, I just thought I'd check it out.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Ha!  I wonder if that was our friendly Marine, Andrew Edwards.  I
>>>>don't
>>>>know if he's from that area or not.  But if so, good for him!
>>>
>>>Andrew has been indefatigable at helping people get to know about D.
>>>He
>>>tries things I'd never think of!
>>
>>
>> Maybe we can get him to publicise "D Programming Distilled"? (And maybe "Imperfect C++" !?)
>>
>>  :-)
>>
>>
>>
>
> He'd be the guy for the job!
>
> - John R.
>
> PS.  Are you charging more for autographed copies?  I'd like one (or two). :-)

I'd be happy (although completely embarrassed) to sign one for you, when we meet up at the inaugural OSI-D.

(Unless you're going to get to Aus this year, or we make the long-talked-about-but-little-acted-on move to the US. <G>)

> Matthew wrote:
>
>> You guys are so impatient!  :-)
>
> Well, there are a lot of us willing to help out to get it out sooner. Spoiled by the speed of the internet and community projects, I guess.

Well, we'd be interested in any volunteers for the D book. We have quite a few reviewer volunteers already - some from D, some elsewhere - but it can't hurt to have more. One word of caution, however, it's sometimes a painful thing to commit to, so don't volunteer unless you're really sure you want to read, and re-read, and re-re-read, etc. etc. in a good cause. ;)

>> FYI: Walter and I will be officially commencing the writing of "D Programming Distilled" on the 14th of Feb. Of course, the writing and production process involves more than a few months, but we do hope to have it in your sweaty palms before the end of the year.
>
> Will this book be available online as well, or just on dead old trees ?

We're still thrashing this out. Well, to be specific, Walter and the Addison-Wesley people are thrashing it out. The outcome's not set yet, but you can be sure that it'll be in the shops for a non-trivial amount of time before it's available in any kind of free form.

Naturally the publisher and (at least one of) the authors need some, minimal (sniff!), financial incentive, otherwise it won't get published.

For my part, I was only ever interested in being published for Addison-Wesley (AWL), and never even tried to get on terms with another publisherd. Now being in their fold (with my book Imperfect C++ - http://imperfectcplusplus.com - for anyone who's _not_ heard me going this last year or so), they have first refusal on my books in any case.

From the first time Walter mentioned the idea of my/our doing a book on D, the ambition has been to write The D Programming Language. Since AWL publish The C++ Programming Language, we wanted to aim it at them. They are keen on this idea long term, but all of us (publisher included), wanted to get out a smaller, toe-in-the-water kind of book now, in a market that will hopefully sustain it. TDPL will require a big uptake in D to make such a large book worthwhile. (Of course, I register thedprogramminglanguage.com some time ago ... <cg>)

> Will you discuss it here, or lock yourselves up and come out next year ?

We're planning to get started in a little over a week. I am also starting my next C++ book at that time, just to make things interesting. ;)

We won't be releasing material here, although doubtless our (mostly) good natured back and forth will stimulate debates here.

> Will it be distributable, or come as single-user non-distributable too ?
>
> I can fully understand the desire to Copyright and close both the D compiler and book, but I would still have to use Open Source on this Mac OS X platform and an Open Content alternative of any introduction could be very useful too. And also easier for others to contribute to...

See answer above.

> But even if Addison-Wesley contracts are not that flexible, it would
> still be most excellent if at least the basic specification could be
> released under a different license, similar to the compiler front-end
> ?
> Then we can build on the same documentation base, as GDC does for
> code.

Not really sure on this one. Maybe Walter can comment.

One thing I would say, however, and that's that I think it'd be almost impossible if the spec/online-docs don't improve as a result of our process over the next few months. If that's any comfort ...

"Brad Anderson" <brad@dsource.dot.org> wrote in message news:cu0ri1$bqd$1@digitaldaemon.com...
> Anders F Björklund wrote:
>> Matthew wrote:
>>
>>> You guys are so impatient!  :-)
>>
>>
>> Well, there are a lot of us willing to help out to get it out sooner. Spoiled by the speed of the internet and community projects, I guess.
>>
>>> FYI: Walter and I will be officially commencing the writing of "D Programming Distilled" on the 14th of Feb. Of course, the writing and production process involves more than a few months, but we do hope to have it in your sweaty palms before the end of the year.
>>
>>
>> Will this book be available online as well, or just on dead old trees
>> ?
>> Will you discuss it here, or lock yourselves up and come out next
>> year ?
>> Will it be distributable, or come as single-user non-distributable
>> too ?
>
> An approach that has been somewhat successful can be found here.  It's been a community effort, but led by Peter Seibel for a Lisp book:
>
> http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/pipeline.html

I'll check it out, but our model's pretty much fixed now.

Cheers

Matthew

Matthew wrote:
> "John Reimer" <brk_6502@yahoo.com> wrote in message 

>>PS.  Are you charging more for autographed copies?  I'd like one (or two). :-)
> 
> 
> I'd be happy (although completely embarrassed) to sign one for you, when we meet up at the inaugural OSI-D.
> 
> (Unless you're going to get to Aus this year, or we make the long-talked-about-but-little-acted-on move to the US. <G>)
> 
> 

Great! We'll meet someday, I'm sure.  I can't say I'll make it to Australia anytime soon (although it would be great fun to make the trip).  OSI-D would be /the/ event of the year... sometime down the road.

Matthew wrote:

> Well, we'd be interested in any volunteers for the D book. We have quite a few reviewer volunteers already - some from D, some elsewhere - but it can't hurt to have more. One word of caution, however, it's sometimes a painful thing to commit to, so don't volunteer unless you're really sure you want to read, and re-read, and re-re-read, etc. etc. in a good cause. ;)

I'd rather be coding ;-) But of course, if there's a bug then I'll tell.

> Naturally the publisher and (at least one of) the authors need some, minimal (sniff!), financial incentive, otherwise it won't get published.

Naturally. Most of the PDFs I use require payment (eg. O'Reilly Safari)

> One thing I would say, however, and that's that I think it'd be almost impossible if the spec/online-docs don't improve as a result of our process over the next few months. If that's any comfort ...

A small one. But it doesn't really help with the community involvement.

--anders

"Anders F Björklund" <afb@algonet.se> wrote in message news:cu21q2$1cbh$2@digitaldaemon.com...
> Matthew wrote:
>
>> Well, we'd be interested in any volunteers for the D book. We have quite a few reviewer volunteers already - some from D, some elsewhere - but it can't hurt to have more. One word of caution, however, it's sometimes a painful thing to commit to, so don't volunteer unless you're really sure you want to read, and re-read, and re-re-read, etc. etc. in a good cause. ;)
>
> I'd rather be coding ;-) But of course, if there's a bug then I'll tell.
>
>> Naturally the publisher and (at least one of) the authors need some, minimal (sniff!), financial incentive, otherwise it won't get published.
>
> Naturally. Most of the PDFs I use require payment (eg. O'Reilly Safari)
>
>> One thing I would say, however, and that's that I think it'd be almost impossible if the spec/online-docs don't improve as a result of our process over the next few months. If that's any comfort ...
>
> A small one. But it doesn't really help with the community involvement.

There's the dilemma. Having spent most of the last two years writing a book, and not earning money, my wife, kids, and mortgage are keen for remuneration wherever I can get it. Just because I've done a big contract the last six months doesn't afford me the luxury of writing a book with absolutely $0 return.

In any case, I'm _only_ interested in publishing with a big, weighty, publisher, who subject their output to rigorous review. And such a publisher must needs charge a healthy return. In fact, even the crappy publishers charge cash money, often thoroughly undue amounts. (Can you guess which one I mean ... ??? <G>)

I would argue that getting books published by a reputable publisher such as AWL would actually be a significant benefit for the language, since it confers it a status that it might not get elsewhere. I've heard from quite a few C++ big-wigs that they'll not be looking at, or writing about, D until it's had a couple of books out.

Anyway, enough debate. It is what it is. Hopefully, we can get it out in a reasonable time, it'll have a reasonably price, and it'll be unreasonably successful. ;)

Cheers

Matthew

Wish you good luck!
BTW, who's the target reader of "D programming distilled"?


Matthew wrote:
> There's the dilemma. Having spent most of the last two years writing a book, and not earning money, my wife, kids, and mortgage are keen for remuneration wherever I can get it. Just because I've done a big contract the last six months doesn't afford me the luxury of writing a book with absolutely $0 return.
> 
> In any case, I'm _only_ interested in publishing with a big, weighty, publisher, who subject their output to rigorous review. And such a publisher must needs charge a healthy return. In fact, even the crappy publishers charge cash money, often thoroughly undue amounts. (Can you guess which one I mean ... ??? <G>)
> 
> I would argue that getting books published by a reputable publisher such as AWL would actually be a significant benefit for the language, since it confers it a status that it might not get elsewhere. I've heard from quite a few C++ big-wigs that they'll not be looking at, or writing about, D until it's had a couple of books out.
> 
> Anyway, enough debate. It is what it is. Hopefully, we can get it out in a reasonable time, it'll have a reasonably price, and it'll be unreasonably successful. ;)
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Matthew
> 
> 
> 
> 

People who are not (yet) coding superstars, but who do have a basic knowledge of C or C++ or C# or Java. (In other words, we're not going to spend masses of pages discussing C-language syntax, but we will be going through all D's syntax.)

Walter and I both really like the Python Essential Reference, Beazley, New Riders, and I hope DPD will be at that level. (Easy, in other words, while still be really useful for gurus and neophytes alike.)

"zwang" <nehzgnaw@gmail.com> wrote in message news:cu22qe$1du9$1@digitaldaemon.com...
> Wish you good luck!
> BTW, who's the target reader of "D programming distilled"?
>
>
> Matthew wrote:
>> There's the dilemma. Having spent most of the last two years writing a book, and not earning money, my wife, kids, and mortgage are keen for remuneration wherever I can get it. Just because I've done a big contract the last six months doesn't afford me the luxury of writing a book with absolutely $0 return.
>>
>> In any case, I'm _only_ interested in publishing with a big, weighty, publisher, who subject their output to rigorous review. And such a publisher must needs charge a healthy return. In fact, even the crappy publishers charge cash money, often thoroughly undue amounts. (Can you guess which one I mean ... ??? <G>)
>>
>> I would argue that getting books published by a reputable publisher such as AWL would actually be a significant benefit for the language, since it confers it a status that it might not get elsewhere. I've heard from quite a few C++ big-wigs that they'll not be looking at, or writing about, D until it's had a couple of books out.
>>
>> Anyway, enough debate. It is what it is. Hopefully, we can get it out in a reasonable time, it'll have a reasonably price, and it'll be unreasonably successful. ;)
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Matthew
>>
>>
>> 

Matthew wrote:

> There's the dilemma. Having spent most of the last two years writing a book, and not earning money, my wife, kids, and mortgage are keen for remuneration wherever I can get it. Just because I've done a big contract the last six months doesn't afford me the luxury of writing a book with absolutely $0 return.

You could say the same for any Open Source, of course ?

As a programmer, I now do both kinds of work myself...
Ideal being when I can write Free Software for money.
(though I'd settle for Open Source / BSD, in a crunch)

http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/selling.html

> I would argue that getting books published by a reputable publisher such as AWL would actually be a significant benefit for the language, since it confers it a status that it might not get elsewhere. I've heard from quite a few C++ big-wigs that they'll not be looking at, or writing about, D until it's had a couple of books out.

I don't care for the big-wigs myself, but about the documentation.

And while most companies prefer to buy their software in a closed
box from a proprietary software vendor and their books in a closed
wrap from a buy-before-you-read bookstore, times they're a-changing...

http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-doc.html

> Anyway, enough debate. It is what it is. Hopefully, we can get it out in a reasonable time, it'll have a reasonably price, and it'll be unreasonably successful. ;)

Yes, enough debate already. "Beware of the falling forks", though.

It is not without controversy and I did not mean to start another
flaming war. But software and documentation are not that different.
Which means that Open Source applies just as much to Open Content,
and Free Software applies just as much to Free Documentation too.

Maybe your book is of a "higher level", but I believe an introduction
should be made open and free. Or at the very least the D specification ?
And we can always extend on the guides and the tutorials, on the Wiki...

There is really no conflict between either DMD/GDC, or Distilled/Wiki4D.

--anders