Bruno Medeiros wrote:

> What exactly do you mean you don't miss any of them when using CE and Build/SCons? I was thinking you didn't miss the other IDE's and their features (! .. which is quite astounding), but then you say you don't 

I really don't. There's nothing in any IDE (with the exception of Eclipse and Java) that I have found I can't live without. This includes integrated debugging (I still don't get why so many people get a burr in their feet over D's debugging support).

> use CE because of code refactoring elsewhere (of Eclipse JDT I presume)? And then what does code refactoring have to with "missing the simplicity of Build"?

One has nothing to do with the other. What I meant was that if CE supported code refactoring for Java (ala Eclipse) I would use it with Java programming (doing without automated refactoring in Java is a huge thing when you have become used to it, not to mention autocompilation on file save - a big plus for Eclipse over Netbeans). But even if CE did have such a feature I wouldn't be able to use Build to compile my Java programs. Compiling Java from the command line can be a right pain sometimes, and Ant scripts are nowhere near as simple as Build Response Files (though arguably more full featured).

In article <dg6ek7$14ud$1@digitaldaemon.com>, Mike Parker says...
>
>Bruno Medeiros wrote:
>
>> What exactly do you mean you don't miss any of them when using CE and Build/SCons? I was thinking you didn't miss the other IDE's and their features (! .. which is quite astounding), but then you say you don't
>
>I really don't. There's nothing in any IDE (with the exception of Eclipse and Java) that I have found I can't live without. This includes integrated debugging (I still don't get why so many people get a burr in their feet over D's debugging support).

Being able to step through code and inspect variables allows me to be more productive because I don't need to recompile often extremely large projects with printf statements to see what a particular piece of code is doing.  This is particularly useful with dynamic binding as the code path often can't be sussed out simply by eyeballing the code itself.  I'll admit to never having needed most of the fancier features (dynamic recompile, back-up and re-execute) but the basics are nice to have.  I agree that it's nothing I can't live without, but it's a useful time-saver.  Particularly in collaborative environments where I spend a lot of time debugging other people's problems.


Sean

Mike Parker wrote:
> Bruno Medeiros wrote:
> 
>> What exactly do you mean you don't miss any of them when using CE and Build/SCons? I was thinking you didn't miss the other IDE's and their features (! .. which is quite astounding), but then you say you don't 
> 
> 
> I really don't. There's nothing in any IDE (with the exception of Eclipse and Java) that I have found I can't live without. This includes integrated debugging (I still don't get why so many people get a burr in their feet over D's debugging support).
> 
Code completion, integrated debugging, integrated building & error reporting, and some others ... you don't find any of these features useful? I don't mean to be offensive but I find that quite insane.. or maybe you didn't yet work in a serious enough project? These features offer much better productivity, so much in fact that I don't find them just useful, but rather *essential*.
In fact I'm not programming in D (other than some simple test programs) until there's an IDE that supports these basic features with D, even If I have to make one myself :P

>> use CE because of code refactoring elsewhere (of Eclipse JDT I presume)? And then what does code refactoring have to with "missing the simplicity of Build"?
> 
> 
> One has nothing to do with the other. What I meant was that if CE supported code refactoring for Java (ala Eclipse) I would use it with Java programming (doing without automated refactoring in Java is a huge thing when you have become used to it, not to mention autocompilation on file save - a big plus for Eclipse over Netbeans). But even if CE did have such a feature I wouldn't be able to use Build to compile my Java programs. Compiling Java from the command line can be a right pain sometimes, and Ant scripts are nowhere near as simple as Build Response Files (though arguably more full featured).
> 

"But even if CE did have such a feature I wouldn't be able to use Build to compile my Java programs." -> Ok, now I think I understand what you said, however I'm not sure if that's true. What's the difference between Build and javac that makes Build more simple? I don't think there is any significant difference, except that Build has response files, was that it?

-- 
Bruno Medeiros
Computer Science/Engineering student

Bruno Medeiros wrote:

> Code completion, integrated debugging, integrated building & error reporting, and some others ... you don't find any of these features useful? I don't mean to be offensive but I find that quite insane.. or maybe you didn't yet work in a serious enough project? These features offer much better productivity, so much in fact that I don't find them just useful, but rather *essential*.

I agree that they are useful, but I just don't find them essential. I've never worked on a large C or C++ project, so I can imagine how integrated debugging would be useful there. But I have worked on large J2EE projects with Eclipse and I'll tell you, I really can live without code completion and all the other fancy schmancy stuff. Like I said, the only feature I'm really hooked on is the automated refactoring. And the compile-on-save is something I miss in other IDEs.


> In fact I'm not programming in D (other than some simple test programs) until there's an IDE that supports these basic features with D, even If I have to make one myself :P

You and I are just different creatures, because I find this insane. IDEs are not amongst the criteria for language selection in my book.

Sean Kelly wrote:

> Being able to step through code and inspect variables allows me to be more
> productive because I don't need to recompile often extremely large projects with
> printf statements to see what a particular piece of code is doing.  This is

I understand all of this. But don't Windbg and gdb provide this functionality? That's the part I don't understand - debugging support exists for D with those tools, does it not? I've not had to use either wutg D as I haven't had any projects large enough or problematic enough to stump me. I know I've read that variable inspection doesn't function in MSVC, but is it broken in Windbg and gdb as well?

> particularly useful with dynamic binding as the code path often can't be sussed
> out simply by eyeballing the code itself.  I'll admit to never having needed
> most of the fancier features (dynamic recompile, back-up and re-execute) but the
> basics are nice to have.  I agree that it's nothing I can't live without, but
> it's a useful time-saver.  Particularly in collaborative environments where I
> spend a lot of time debugging other people's problems.

Mike,
I can empathize with you as I too don't feel troubled by the lack of a good
IDE or interactive debugger for D. I manage just fine with out them. It
could be that I grew up without these tools and I've evolved coding
practices that work for me. I started coding using punched cards and a
single compile per day was all we could fit in. So we learned to code
carefully ;-) I've spent most of my professional coding life working on
character terminal-based systems, such as IBM mainframes, VAXes, and
various Unixes. These new-fangled color graphics VDU thingies are great
eye-candy and do enable more information to be displayed, but I still don't
pine for an IDE.

-- 
Derek
(skype: derek.j.parnell)
Melbourne, Australia
14/09/2005 11:33:04 AM

In article <dg73t4$1p6b$1@digitaldaemon.com>, Bruno Medeiros says...

> Code completion, integrated debugging, integrated building & error
> reporting, and some others ...
> ...
> In fact I'm not programming in D (other than some simple test programs)
> until there's an IDE that supports these basic features with D, even
> if I have to make one myself :P

Apart from the integrated debugging option the Zeus editor/ide can already do all of this and more:

http://www.zeusedit.com/features.html

Zeus comes pre-configured with syntax highlighting and code folding for the D language, but some additional tweaking is still required.

For example some compiler/linker/make setup is required:

http://www.zeusedit.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=33

and if you have access to the header files it is possible to configure intellisensing for almost set of libraries:

http://www.zeusedit.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=185

Note: Zeus is shareware (45 day trial).

Jussi Jumppanen
Author: Zeus for Windows

Jussi Jumppanen wrote:
> In article <dg73t4$1p6b$1@digitaldaemon.com>, Bruno Medeiros says...
> 
> 
>>Code completion, integrated debugging, integrated building & error reporting, and some others ... ...
>>In fact I'm not programming in D (other than some simple test programs) until there's an IDE that supports these basic features with D, even if I have to make one myself :P
> 
> 
> Apart from the integrated debugging option the Zeus editor/ide can already do all of this and more:
> 
> http://www.zeusedit.com/features.html
> 
> Zeus comes pre-configured with syntax highlighting and code folding for the D language, but some additional tweaking is still required.
> 
> For example some compiler/linker/make setup is required:
> 
> http://www.zeusedit.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=33
> 
> and if you have access to the header files it is possible to configure intellisensing for almost set of libraries:
> 
> http://www.zeusedit.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=185
> 
> Note: Zeus is shareware (45 day trial).
> 
> Jussi Jumppanen
> Author: Zeus for Windows
Yes I had tried Zeus a bit, but (among other things) the code completion feature isn't "fully-featured", it only completes names between "." and "->" boundaries (i.e. scope boundaries), and not when you write just part of the name and want do see completions that match the beggining of the name.


-- 
Bruno Medeiros
Computer Science/Engineering student