I don't care to debate politics here - but...

>Sean wrote...
>
>When was the last time you heard of a company lowering its prices simply because its expenses decreased?  So long as the price is competitive with other offerings and the public is willing to pay for the product, decreased costs will simply mean increased profits.

This is sort of silly. Have you ever heard of a Hundai? They can make thing cheaper, cause its from Korea and labor is cheap, and they sell their cars for less money... And you know, modern Hundai cars are pretty high quality...


Trevor Parscal

Kyle and Dave - I see things from your perspective as well...

I think its called Jeffersonian....

Thanks,
Trevor Parscal

In article <dj6kpf$q58$1@digitaldaemon.com>, Sean Kelly says...
>
>In article <dj6hvd$e32$1@digitaldaemon.com>, Kyle Furlong says...
>>
>>So you think the IRS is stupid and should die a swift death? Have you heard of the FairTax? Just found out about it last night. Read up here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FairTax, and discuss!
>
>It sounds like the proposal is an attempt to have individuals shoulder the corporate tax burden.

That's one way of looking at it. Another way to look at it is that individuals are already paying the taxes of corporations. Corporates just add their tax burden to the costs of the goods that they sell. When you buy anything from a corporation, a portion of the price goes to pay their tax bill. They don't itemize it on the receipt, but the it's certainly part of the price of doing business with them.

Part of the idea behind the FairTax is that we could expect the base price of goods to go down if we changed from a national income tax to a national sales tax. In competive markets, the business with the best price can sell the most product. It makes sense to me.

jcc7

Yeah its not going to happen. First of all the current federal government is closer to organized crime than politics, the IRS is a private entity and we dont even know who owns the trust which controls it.  Most likely its the private owners of the federal reserve. The legal definition of "income" is "profit from a business" - a man trading labor is not taxable. Somewhere along the way they suckered us into paying the corporate tax burden. They also suckered us into establishing an illegal central bank - by calling it a federal reserve. Now they actually confiscate our wealth and hand it over to the owners of the fed - not the government - at the tune of $40 million an hour. All for the benifit of using their fancy (yet worthless) green paper. But hey, they have guns n stuff.

What is going to happen is a national point of sale tax on top of the income tax. This national sales tax will result in a federal ID card and federal terminals at all points of sale. This will be the road to their orwellian promised land. It will take a major revelation to turn the tax burden back upon the corporations. A revelation that turns the entire illegal system that is the federal reserve and IRS onto its ass as exactly what its is: the greatest scam of all time. I believe the awakening is happening, so we shall see...

Im glad people want real tax reform - the awakening is afoot! But we need to go deeper and abolish the federal reserve itself or we are doing is throwing a bucket of paint over it.


Craig Black wrote:
> This is an incredibly radical change to the tax code.  What are the chances of this actually passing?  I would guess its not likely at all.
> 
> -Craig 
> 
> 

In article <dj7b2f$ac3$1@digitaldaemon.com>, Kyle Furlong says...
>
>The national sales tax would not affect any state taxes at all, it simply adds onto the base price of the good or service 23%. (30% exclusive)

One reason I mentioned this particular issue is that differing state sales tax laws have an odd impact on sales in some border areas--Manhattan and NJ being a prime example.  There, it is so common for New Yorkers to take the subway to New Jersey to go clothes shopping that NYC regularly has tax-free weekends to encourage its residents to shop locally.  If their sales tax went from 8% to 33% this effect would be even more pronounced.  This possibly isn't a reason in itselt not to have the new tax law, however, so much as it is an interesting fact.

>Even if companies dont offer goods at lower prices, (which they would, in order to get an edge on the competition) think of stock options and dividends. With earnings sky rocketing, that money would find its way back into shareholder's pockets (read - your 401(k)). I think that by eliminating the built-in welfare of the income tax (lower incomes having a negative tax rate) the government even saves at least some money on the bargain.

The shareholder's pockets perhaps, but how far above the poverty line do folks have to be before they have acces to a 401k?  I grant that the new system would encourage people to save so perhaps things would improve, but I think this largely supports my argument that the law would be better for the wealthy than the poor.  That said, its sheer simplicitly is definately appealing.  I'll have to find some time to read the bill today.


Sean

In article <dj7ere$m0o$1@digitaldaemon.com>, Trevor Parscal says...
>
>I don't care to debate politics here - but...
>
>>Sean wrote...
>>
>>When was the last time you heard of a company lowering its prices simply because its expenses decreased?  So long as the price is competitive with other offerings and the public is willing to pay for the product, decreased costs will simply mean increased profits.
>
>This is sort of silly. Have you ever heard of a Hundai? They can make thing cheaper, cause its from Korea and labor is cheap, and they sell their cars for less money... And you know, modern Hundai cars are pretty high quality...

So why don't other car manufacturers feel the need to be price competitive with Hyundai? :-)


Sean

In article <dj7ere$m0o$1@digitaldaemon.com>, Trevor Parscal says...
>
>I don't care to debate politics here - but...
>
>>Sean wrote...
>>
>>When was the last time you heard of a company lowering its prices simply because its expenses decreased?  So long as the price is competitive with other offerings and the public is willing to pay for the product, decreased costs will simply mean increased profits.
>
>This is sort of silly. Have you ever heard of a Hundai? They can make thing cheaper, cause its from Korea and labor is cheap, and they sell their cars for less money... And you know, modern Hundai cars are pretty high quality...
>
>
>Trevor Parscal

Just had to add that a huge part of the cost of labor difference can be accounted for by taxes and Gov't regulation. In other words, one of the primary reasons that U.S. citizens need such relatively high pay to maintain our std. of living is because of the tax and regulatory burden of the Federal Gov't.

In article <dj7jab$14ia$1@digitaldaemon.com>, JT says...
>
>Im glad people want real tax reform - the awakening is afoot! But we need to go deeper and abolish the federal reserve itself or we are doing is throwing a bucket of paint over it.

I agree that Keynesian economic policy turned out to be kind of a mess, but at this point it's not likely that the Fed is going anywhere--they manage trillions of dollars of securitized national debt.  What would happen to all that?


Sean

In article <dj7jab$14ia$1@digitaldaemon.com>, JT says...
>
>Yeah its not going to happen. First of all the current federal government is closer to organized crime than politics, the IRS is a private entity and we dont even know who owns the trust which controls it.  Most likely its the private owners of the federal reserve. The legal definition of "income" is "profit from a business" - a man trading labor is not taxable. Somewhere along the way they suckered us into paying the corporate tax burden. They also suckered us into establishing an illegal central bank - by calling it a federal reserve. Now they actually confiscate our wealth and hand it over to the owners of the fed - not the government - at the tune of $40 million an hour. All for the benifit of using their fancy (yet worthless) green paper. But hey, they have guns n stuff.
>
>What is going to happen is a national point of sale tax on top of the income tax. This national sales tax will result in a federal ID card and federal terminals at all points of sale. This will be the road to their orwellian promised land. It will take a major revelation to turn the tax burden back upon the corporations. A revelation that turns the entire illegal system that is the federal reserve and IRS onto its ass as exactly what its is: the greatest scam of all time. I believe the awakening is happening, so we shall see...
>
>Im glad people want real tax reform - the awakening is afoot! But we need to go deeper and abolish the federal reserve itself or we are doing is throwing a bucket of paint over it.
>

That's what I fear the most about any tax "reform". They will end up compromising with the myrid of special interest groups out there and basically we will end up with a higher tax bill and less freedom.

>
>Craig Black wrote:
>> This is an incredibly radical change to the tax code.  What are the chances of this actually passing?  I would guess its not likely at all.
>> 
>> -Craig
>> 
>> 

"turned out to be kind of a mess" ? This is the way it was designed. It was always just a scam. It was designed to transfer your wealth to the owners of the fed via inflation through the mechanism of expanding the elastic money supply. i.e. they just print more money. There is no real 'debt' the way we percieve. We have a bunch of very slick criminals handing us a bill and we just shrug and go "gee i guess we owe it" when in fact its mostly just rental fees on worthless green paper.

for example, if you could take a piece of paper, color it green with a crayon, write $100 on it in magic marker, and then LOAN it to someone for $100 PLUS INTEREST - would you or would you not eventually own everything? Would the planet not eventually be 'in debt' to you? Heck, would they even physically be able to pay it back? (hint: no debt = no dollars)

Im sorry - I dont owe any blue blood family any "debt" just because they conned my great-grandfathers generation into the federal reserve. In fact I want a refund.

I dont know the exact solution but it starts somewhere with a REAL CURRENCY not this fiat nonsense we have been brainwashed into believing is money. The dollar doesnt even rate as high as a 'bank note' - its not anywhere near money. The legitimate securities should be transfered and the illegal ones flushed right down the toilet. my solution would also be to lock up the criminals behind this nonsense. Of course this gets into a place americans just dont want to go - but it all begins with abolishing the federal reserve. anything else is just games.


Sean Kelly wrote:
> In article <dj7jab$14ia$1@digitaldaemon.com>, JT says...
> 
>>Im glad people want real tax reform - the awakening is afoot! But we need to go deeper and abolish the federal reserve itself or we are doing is throwing a bucket of paint over it.
> 
> 
> I agree that Keynesian economic policy turned out to be kind of a mess, but at
> this point it's not likely that the Fed is going anywhere--they manage trillions
> of dollars of securitized national debt.  What would happen to all that?
> 
> 
> Sean
> 
>