On Mon, 6 Mar 2006, Stewart Gordon wrote:

> Adding or changing features in the D language involves changing both the compiler and specification.  As such, should such requests be filed under DMD or under www.digitalmars.com?
> 
> Stewart.

I could always add a new component for the language itself.  I opted to start very small since it's really easy to rearrange bugs enmasse once things get to the point of needing to be better distinguished.  For now, personally, I'd say dmd with a severity of enhancement since the implementation has to support it before it's worth documenting. :)

Later,
Brad

"Stewart Gordon" <smjg_1998@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:duhstu$1gng$1@digitaldaemon.com...
> Adding or changing features in the D language involves changing both the compiler and specification.  As such, should such requests be filed under DMD or under www.digitalmars.com?

Enhancement requests aren't bugs. I think enhancement requests should go in the digitalmars.D newsgroup, where people can argue about them <g>.

Brad Roberts wrote:
> Ok.. it's probably a little rough still, but I think it's usable now.  I've got bugzilla setup here:
> 
>     http://d.puremagic.com/bugzilla/
> 
> Any new bugs or changes to existing bugs will be sent through to digitalmars.D.bugs.  Any messages posted in the newsgroup with the subject matching /bugs.*\d+/i will be auto appended to the referenced bug if the 'from' email address matches a registered user.  The entire body of the message will be recorded, so please trim the body down to the really relevant information.  There's no need for the body to contain the entire contents of all past conversations since they will already be in the db.
> 
> I have NOT gone back and opened bugs for already reported bugs, except the one I used for testing.  Please feel free to do so for bugs you know to be still open.
> 
> The products and components available for filing bugs are still somewhat skeletal.  I'm sure there will be some rearrangements as we start to accumulate data.
> 
> I'm certainly open to suggestions on all facets of the system.  My goal is to provide a trackable system that allows us all to better understand the state of the d language and it's supporting pieces.
> 
> If you'd prefer to comment privately, that's welcome as well.
> 
> Later,
> Brad

The obvious next step is for Walter to allow trusted community members the ability to fix bugs under a certain priority level. Ready? Discuss!

On Mon, 6 Mar 2006, Kyle Furlong wrote:

> Brad Roberts wrote:
> > Ok.. it's probably a little rough still, but I think it's usable now.  I've got bugzilla setup here:
> > 
> >     http://d.puremagic.com/bugzilla/
> > 
> > Any new bugs or changes to existing bugs will be sent through to digitalmars.D.bugs.  Any messages posted in the newsgroup with the subject matching /bugs.*\d+/i will be auto appended to the referenced bug if the 'from' email address matches a registered user.  The entire body of the message will be recorded, so please trim the body down to the really relevant information.  There's no need for the body to contain the entire contents of all past conversations since they will already be in the db.
> > 
> > I have NOT gone back and opened bugs for already reported bugs, except the one I used for testing.  Please feel free to do so for bugs you know to be still open.
> > 
> > The products and components available for filing bugs are still somewhat skeletal.  I'm sure there will be some rearrangements as we start to accumulate data.
> > 
> > I'm certainly open to suggestions on all facets of the system.  My goal is to provide a trackable system that allows us all to better understand the state of the d language and it's supporting pieces.
> > 
> > If you'd prefer to comment privately, that's welcome as well.
> > 
> > Later,
> > Brad
> 
> The obvious next step is for Walter to allow trusted community members the ability to fix bugs under a certain priority level. Ready? Discuss!

Um.. I'm sure he's already willing to accept fixes from anyone for any bug.  There's no guarantee that he'll take the change 'as is', but I'm _sure_ he's happy to have others diagnose and provide fixes for bugs.

Part of what's needed is a way to understand what bugs are being worked on.  Bugzilla provides that, but it requires that people actually use it well.  New bugs come in as status 'NEW'.  There's a radio button below the comment block for the bug to be changed to 'assigned' aka 'accepted, I'm working on it now'.

So, don't wait for feedback from walter on this.. just dive in and help. Granted, providing fixes for backend dmd bugs can't be done by anyone other than him, but anything in the front end and semantic level of the language and compiler can be fixed through gdc.  They share a front end.

Once you have fixes, attach diffs to the bug entry.

Later,
Brad

Brad Roberts wrote:
> Ok.. it's probably a little rough still, but I think it's usable now.  I've got bugzilla setup here:
> 
>     http://d.puremagic.com/bugzilla/
> 
> Any new bugs or changes to existing bugs will be sent through to digitalmars.D.bugs.  Any messages posted in the newsgroup with the subject matching /bugs.*\d+/i will be auto appended to the referenced bug if the 'from' email address matches a registered user.  The entire body of the message will be recorded, so please trim the body down to the really relevant information.  There's no need for the body to contain the entire contents of all past conversations since they will already be in the db.
> 
> I have NOT gone back and opened bugs for already reported bugs, except the one I used for testing.  Please feel free to do so for bugs you know to be still open.
> 
> The products and components available for filing bugs are still somewhat skeletal.  I'm sure there will be some rearrangements as we start to accumulate data.
> 
> I'm certainly open to suggestions on all facets of the system.  My goal is to provide a trackable system that allows us all to better understand the state of the d language and it's supporting pieces.
> 
> If you'd prefer to comment privately, that's welcome as well.
> 
> Later,
> Brad

First of all, thanks for this great contribution to the D community.

Now, some questions and comments.

The preferred way now to submit bugs is in the bugzilla, right Walter?
(and only in the bugzilla, since it takes care automatically of mirroring the report on the .bugs NG, right?)

How do we deal with spam now? For the bugzilla to work well I presume we have to enter correct email addresses there, but, coupled with the NG reporting (which, on top of that, is archived on the Web), we have a big spam bait here.

Also, out of curiosity, the NG reporting is a feature of bugzilla, or some add-on? Could you point me to some doc/info about it, I couldn't find any.

-- 
Bruno Medeiros - CS/E student
http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?BrunoMedeiros#D

Bruno Medeiros wrote:
> The preferred way now to submit bugs is in the bugzilla, right Walter?
> (and only in the bugzilla, since it takes care automatically of mirroring the report on the .bugs NG, right?)
> 
> How do we deal with spam now? For the bugzilla to work well I presume we have to enter correct email addresses there, but, coupled with the NG reporting (which, on top of that, is archived on the Web), we have a big spam bait here.

Yup, that's a feature of bugzilla which is absolutely dreadful. And there doesn't seem to be any need whatsover for email addresses to appear anywhere. (I submitted a bug report about gcc, and they put my email on the bug report (it appears in XREF section). Three weeks later the spam flood began. Turned me off gcc for life).
Create a sacrificial email address for it, I reckon.

BTW, I reckon it's only a matter of time before 100% of spambots do
" ([a-zA-Z0-9_]+) at (([a-zA-Z0-9_]+) dot)+ (com|net|org)" regexp searches while looking for email addresses. I'm just amazed that people (including gcc compiler writers!) think that simple text replacement of @ and . will keep them safe.

Don Clugston wrote:
> Bruno Medeiros wrote:
>> The preferred way now to submit bugs is in the bugzilla, right Walter?
>> (and only in the bugzilla, since it takes care automatically of mirroring the report on the .bugs NG, right?)
>>
>> How do we deal with spam now? For the bugzilla to work well I presume we have to enter correct email addresses there, but, coupled with the NG reporting (which, on top of that, is archived on the Web), we have a big spam bait here.
> 
> Yup, that's a feature of bugzilla which is absolutely dreadful. And there doesn't seem to be any need whatsover for email addresses to appear anywhere. (I submitted a bug report about gcc, and they put my email on the bug report (it appears in XREF section). Three weeks later the spam flood began. Turned me off gcc for life).
> Create a sacrificial email address for it, I reckon.

I simply game up on preventing spam a while back--a spam bot found my domain and started hitting evveryone on it simultaneously.  However, we've got Spamassassin and such installed to filter via procmail and I don't see more than one or two spam mails a week in my inbox.  Couple that with the Thunderbird filtering and that takes the number down to basically zero.  I'd suggest simply using gmail or another service that has capable spam filtering and not worry about it.  Though this obviously doesn't hold for work accounts (I've never put my work email online and I probably get 10 spam mails a day there).


Sean

On Wed, 8 Mar 2006, Sean Kelly wrote:
> Don Clugston wrote:
> > Bruno Medeiros wrote:
> > > The preferred way now to submit bugs is in the bugzilla, right Walter? (and only in the bugzilla, since it takes care automatically of mirroring the report on the .bugs NG, right?)
> > > 
> > > How do we deal with spam now? For the bugzilla to work well I presume we have to enter correct email addresses there, but, coupled with the NG reporting (which, on top of that, is archived on the Web), we have a big spam bait here.
> > 
> > Yup, that's a feature of bugzilla which is absolutely dreadful. And there
> > doesn't seem to be any need whatsover for email addresses to appear
> > anywhere. (I submitted a bug report about gcc, and they put my email on the
> > bug report (it appears in XREF section). Three weeks later the spam flood
> > began. Turned me off gcc for life).
> > Create a sacrificial email address for it, I reckon.
> 
> I simply game up on preventing spam a while back--a spam bot found my domain and started hitting evveryone on it simultaneously.  However, we've got Spamassassin and such installed to filter via procmail and I don't see more than one or two spam mails a week in my inbox.  Couple that with the Thunderbird filtering and that takes the number down to basically zero.  I'd suggest simply using gmail or another service that has capable spam filtering and not worry about it.  Though this obviously doesn't hold for work accounts (I've never put my work email online and I probably get 10 spam mails a day there).

A agree with Sean here.  I've used one and only one email address for a little over 10 years now asside from a few spamtrap addresses at various points on and off (ie, never ever used, just exist to see what spam gets delivered).  The rates are approximately the same.  I long ago decided that the only defense is to be defensive.. greylist, spamassassin, etc. Train up some good filters and protect yourself.  Relying on lack of posting just doesn't work.

There's little point to a bug tracking system where you can't track and communicate with the submitters.  Large percentage of bugs need interaction.  Bugzilla, like most web based tracking systems, has that as an underlying assumption and I don't have the time or will to invest the time it'd take to change that assumption.  I'd much rather spend it fixing dmd/gdc/etc.

Later,
Brad

On Wed, 8 Mar 2006, Bruno Medeiros wrote:

> The preferred way now to submit bugs is in the bugzilla, right Walter?
> (and only in the bugzilla, since it takes care automatically of mirroring the
> report on the .bugs NG, right?)

IMHO, bugzilla should be preferred over direct posting to the news group due to it's inherent trackability, yes.

> Also, out of curiosity, the NG reporting is a feature of bugzilla, or some add-on? Could you point me to some doc/info about it, I couldn't find any.

I did some custom hacks to bugzilla to get it to post to the newsgroup. It's on my low priority list to take the hacks and work them into a productizeable form.  I'm really too unhappy with how hacky the changes are right now to even hand out diffs.  I really want to make it more flexible and configurable than it is.  Right now it's very hardcoded, every bug, regardless of product, category, etc.. all get posted to digitalmars.D.bugs and only on the news.digitalmars.com server. Unacceptable, really.

Later,
Brad

Brad Roberts wrote:
> On Wed, 8 Mar 2006, Sean Kelly wrote:
>> Don Clugston wrote:
>>> Bruno Medeiros wrote:
>>>> The preferred way now to submit bugs is in the bugzilla, right Walter?
>>>> (and only in the bugzilla, since it takes care automatically of mirroring
>>>> the report on the .bugs NG, right?)
>>>>
>>>> How do we deal with spam now? For the bugzilla to work well I presume we
>>>> have to enter correct email addresses there, but, coupled with the NG
>>>> reporting (which, on top of that, is archived on the Web), we have a big
>>>> spam bait here.
>>> Yup, that's a feature of bugzilla which is absolutely dreadful. And there
>>> doesn't seem to be any need whatsover for email addresses to appear
>>> anywhere. (I submitted a bug report about gcc, and they put my email on the
>>> bug report (it appears in XREF section). Three weeks later the spam flood
>>> began. Turned me off gcc for life).
>>> Create a sacrificial email address for it, I reckon.
>> I simply game up on preventing spam a while back--a spam bot found my domain
>> and started hitting evveryone on it simultaneously.  However, we've got
>> Spamassassin and such installed to filter via procmail and I don't see more
>> than one or two spam mails a week in my inbox.  Couple that with the
>> Thunderbird filtering and that takes the number down to basically zero.  I'd
>> suggest simply using gmail or another service that has capable spam filtering
>> and not worry about it.  Though this obviously doesn't hold for work accounts
>> (I've never put my work email online and I probably get 10 spam mails a day
>> there).
> 
> A agree with Sean here.  I've used one and only one email address for a little over 10 years now asside from a few spamtrap addresses at various points on and off (ie, never ever used, just exist to see what spam gets delivered).  The rates are approximately the same.  I long ago decided that the only defense is to be defensive.. greylist, spamassassin, etc.  Train up some good filters and protect yourself.  Relying on lack of posting just doesn't work.

Actually, it worked extremely well for me for a long time -- but I was very careful, using sacrificial emails for anything remotely suspect. I use dual filtering (both server and Thunderbird) as well. But until the gcc debacle, no spam had *ever* reached Thunderbird. Now that my workplace has started using Outlook (aka "Microsoft PetriDish (tm), the perfect breeding ground for viruses"), it's a lost cause for all my accounts.

> There's little point to a bug tracking system where you can't track and communicate with the submitters.  Large percentage of bugs need interaction.

I agree, but I think that information should only be visible to registered users. The dsource forums work very well that way, for example.

 Bugzilla, like most web based tracking systems, has that as
> an underlying assumption and I don't have the time or will to invest the time it'd take to change that assumption.  I'd much rather spend it fixing dmd/gdc/etc.

I agree, but I really think the Bugzilla guys should improve the situation. It's a relic of the pre-spam era. At the very least, it should warn anyone who registers, that any email address they enter will be spam bait.