"Charles" <noone@nowhere.com> wrote in message news:ds5b72$124c$1@digitaldaemon.com...
>> SWT is a part of eclipse application framework (namespace
>> org.eclipse.swt)
>> and I have never seen it being used alone outside of Eclipse.
>> Standalone version of SWT does exist but if anyone point finger
>> on application or project using it I would appreciate it a lot.
>
> Broad statements like this are just asking for trouble :).
>
> http://www.rssowl.org/
> http://azureus.sourceforge.net/
> http://panoptesmgmt.sourceforge.net/
> http://sancho-gui.sourceforge.net/
>
> And there are quite alot of books about it as well.

Oh, thanks a lot.
Next question: what applications from the list you are using personally?


>
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/ref=br_ss_hs/103-0362120 -4087815?platform=gurupa&url=index%3Dstripbooks%3Arelevance-above%26dispatch %3Dsearch%26results-process%3Dbin&field-keywords=swt&Go.x=8&Go.y=8
>
> I think your greatly underestimating SWT.

Negative.

SWT is nearly ideal for the task it was designed for - extendable IDE environment for Java.

I am not using it though.
I need performance at first and I am not interested
in other bells and whistles.

I am using native code IDEs if you will ask me.
For commercial project we did recently -
Microsoft VisualJ (Visual Studio) - still the best IDE and debugger (deep
IMHO)
And GEL for private java projects (http://www.gexperts.com/)

>
> Out of curiousity, what is your ideal GUI toolkit ?
>

For what? That is the question....
Each task has its own ideal toolkit. No silver bullet in principle.

For BlockNote[.net] I was using WTL as I had design goal to create native Windows application - drop-in replacement of notepad.exe and wordpad.exe but for HTML.  So it should look natively for windows.

WTL is just thin set of templates wrapping HWND and using
native look and feel as much as possible.
HTML engine in BlockNote by itself is using its own set of classes - its own
toolkit.

And next version of BlockNote will appear as a set of HTML/CSS/Script
files running in some "smart client" application I am designing now.
You may think about http://www.terrainformatica.com/htmlayout/
as a GUI toolkit for new BlockNote.
Sort of http://www.terrainformatica.com/htmlayout/images/image5.png

Time changed and as do requirements. I've got a lot of customization request for example. Having application defined as set of HTML/CSS/Script declarations opens it for customizations, extnesions and integration with legacy systems.

I extended CSS (cascading style sheets) to serve better
apllication UI purposes. E.g. simple animation has been added.
See screenshots http://www.terrainformatica.com/htmlayout/screenshots.whtm
or download demo from the site.

Andrew.

> Oh, thanks a lot.
> Next question: what applications from the list you are using personally?

I use rssowl.

And actually I spoke too soon , SWT is not as popular as I thought it was , though I still think its a solid GUI kit.

> I am not using it though.
> I need performance at first and I am not interested
> in other bells and whistles.

DWT is likely faster than SWT , I notice a marginal difference on my local machine.

> For what? That is the question....
> Each task has its own ideal toolkit. No silver bullet in principle.

Your right, and having DWT as 'The Standard' won't stop people from using others.  I think having DWT as a standard is more of a marketing move.


> Time changed and as do requirements. I've got a lot of customization request for example. Having application defined as set of HTML/CSS/Script declarations opens it for customizations, extnesions and integration with legacy systems.

I think HTMLLayout and Harmonia are simply gorgeous ( I cant find a download for harmonia anymore ? http://www.terrainformatica.com/harmonia/ ) , and I like the idea behind it. I hope you continue developing harmonia.

Charlie



"Andrew Fedoniouk" <news@terrainformatica.com> wrote in message news:ds5scd$1hak$1@digitaldaemon.com...
>
> "Charles" <noone@nowhere.com> wrote in message news:ds5b72$124c$1@digitaldaemon.com...
> >> SWT is a part of eclipse application framework (namespace
> >> org.eclipse.swt)
> >> and I have never seen it being used alone outside of Eclipse.
> >> Standalone version of SWT does exist but if anyone point finger
> >> on application or project using it I would appreciate it a lot.
> >
> > Broad statements like this are just asking for trouble :).
> >
> > http://www.rssowl.org/
> > http://azureus.sourceforge.net/
> > http://panoptesmgmt.sourceforge.net/
> > http://sancho-gui.sourceforge.net/
> >
> > And there are quite alot of books about it as well.
>
> Oh, thanks a lot.
> Next question: what applications from the list you are using personally?
>
>
> >
> >
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/ref=br_ss_hs/103-0362120
>
> -4087815?platform=gurupa&url=index%3Dstripbooks%3Arelevance-above%26dispat
ch
> > %3Dsearch%26results-process%3Dbin&field-keywords=swt&Go.x=8&Go.y=8
> >
> > I think your greatly underestimating SWT.
>
> Negative.
>
> SWT is nearly ideal for the task it was designed for - extendable IDE environment for Java.
>
> I am not using it though.
> I need performance at first and I am not interested
> in other bells and whistles.
>
> I am using native code IDEs if you will ask me.
> For commercial project we did recently -
> Microsoft VisualJ (Visual Studio) - still the best IDE and debugger (deep
> IMHO)
> And GEL for private java projects (http://www.gexperts.com/)
>
> >
> > Out of curiousity, what is your ideal GUI toolkit ?
> >
>
> For what? That is the question....
> Each task has its own ideal toolkit. No silver bullet in principle.
>
> For BlockNote[.net] I was using WTL as I had design goal to create native Windows application - drop-in replacement of notepad.exe and wordpad.exe but for HTML.  So it should look natively for windows.
>
> WTL is just thin set of templates wrapping HWND and using
> native look and feel as much as possible.
> HTML engine in BlockNote by itself is using its own set of classes - its
own
> toolkit.
>
> And next version of BlockNote will appear as a set of HTML/CSS/Script
> files running in some "smart client" application I am designing now.
> You may think about http://www.terrainformatica.com/htmlayout/
> as a GUI toolkit for new BlockNote.
> Sort of http://www.terrainformatica.com/htmlayout/images/image5.png
>
> Time changed and as do requirements. I've got a lot of customization request for example. Having application defined as set of HTML/CSS/Script declarations opens it for customizations, extnesions and integration with legacy systems.
>
> I extended CSS (cascading style sheets) to serve better
> apllication UI purposes. E.g. simple animation has been added.
> See screenshots http://www.terrainformatica.com/htmlayout/screenshots.whtm
> or download demo from the site.
>
> Andrew.
>
>

Charles wrote:
>> Oh, thanks a lot.
>> Next question: what applications from the list you are using personally?
> 
> I use rssowl.
> 
> And actually I spoke too soon , SWT is not as popular as I thought it was ,
> though I still think its a solid GUI kit.
> 
>> I am not using it though.
>> I need performance at first and I am not interested
>> in other bells and whistles.
> 
> DWT is likely faster than SWT , I notice a marginal difference on my local
> machine.
> 
>> For what? That is the question....
>> Each task has its own ideal toolkit. No silver bullet in principle.
> 
> Your right, and having DWT as 'The Standard' won't stop people from using
> others.  I think having DWT as a standard is more of a marketing move.
> 
> 
>> Time changed and as do requirements. I've got a lot of customization
>> request for example. Having application defined as set of
>> HTML/CSS/Script declarations opens it for customizations, extnesions
>> and integration with legacy systems.
> 
> I think HTMLLayout and Harmonia are simply gorgeous ( I cant find a download
> for harmonia anymore ? http://www.terrainformatica.com/harmonia/ ) , and I
> like the idea behind it. I hope you continue developing harmonia.
> 
> Charlie
> 
> 
> 
> "Andrew Fedoniouk" <news@terrainformatica.com> wrote in message
> news:ds5scd$1hak$1@digitaldaemon.com...
>> "Charles" <noone@nowhere.com> wrote in message
>> news:ds5b72$124c$1@digitaldaemon.com...
>>>> SWT is a part of eclipse application framework (namespace
>>>> org.eclipse.swt)
>>>> and I have never seen it being used alone outside of Eclipse.
>>>> Standalone version of SWT does exist but if anyone point finger
>>>> on application or project using it I would appreciate it a lot.
>>> Broad statements like this are just asking for trouble :).
>>>
>>> http://www.rssowl.org/
>>> http://azureus.sourceforge.net/
>>> http://panoptesmgmt.sourceforge.net/
>>> http://sancho-gui.sourceforge.net/
>>>
>>> And there are quite alot of books about it as well.
>> Oh, thanks a lot.
>> Next question: what applications from the list you are using personally?
>>
>>
>>>
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/ref=br_ss_hs/103-0362120
>> -4087815?platform=gurupa&url=index%3Dstripbooks%3Arelevance-above%26dispat
> ch
>>> %3Dsearch%26results-process%3Dbin&field-keywords=swt&Go.x=8&Go.y=8
>>>
>>> I think your greatly underestimating SWT.
>> Negative.
>>
>> SWT is nearly ideal for the task it was designed for -
>> extendable IDE environment for Java.
>>
>> I am not using it though.
>> I need performance at first and I am not interested
>> in other bells and whistles.
>>
>> I am using native code IDEs if you will ask me.
>> For commercial project we did recently -
>> Microsoft VisualJ (Visual Studio) - still the best IDE and debugger (deep
>> IMHO)
>> And GEL for private java projects (http://www.gexperts.com/)
>>
>>> Out of curiousity, what is your ideal GUI toolkit ?
>>>
>> For what? That is the question....
>> Each task has its own ideal toolkit. No silver bullet in principle.
>>
>> For BlockNote[.net] I was using WTL as I had design goal to
>> create native Windows application - drop-in replacement of
>> notepad.exe and wordpad.exe but for HTML.  So it should
>> look natively for windows.
>>
>> WTL is just thin set of templates wrapping HWND and using
>> native look and feel as much as possible.
>> HTML engine in BlockNote by itself is using its own set of classes - its
> own
>> toolkit.
>>
>> And next version of BlockNote will appear as a set of HTML/CSS/Script
>> files running in some "smart client" application I am designing now.
>> You may think about http://www.terrainformatica.com/htmlayout/
>> as a GUI toolkit for new BlockNote.
>> Sort of http://www.terrainformatica.com/htmlayout/images/image5.png
>>
>> Time changed and as do requirements. I've got a lot of customization
>> request for example. Having application defined as set of
>> HTML/CSS/Script declarations opens it for customizations, extnesions
>> and integration with legacy systems.
>>
>> I extended CSS (cascading style sheets) to serve better
>> apllication UI purposes. E.g. simple animation has been added.
>> See screenshots http://www.terrainformatica.com/htmlayout/screenshots.whtm
>> or download demo from the site.
>>
>> Andrew.
>>
>>
> 
> 

You can get the source through the svn server Andrew has posted there.

Kyle Furlong wrote:
> Charles wrote:
> 
>>> Oh, thanks a lot.
>>> Next question: what applications from the list you are using personally?
>>
>>
>> I use rssowl.
>>
>> And actually I spoke too soon , SWT is not as popular as I thought it was ,
>> though I still think its a solid GUI kit.
>>
>>> I am not using it though.
>>> I need performance at first and I am not interested
>>> in other bells and whistles.
>>
>>
>> DWT is likely faster than SWT , I notice a marginal difference on my local
>> machine.
>>
>>> For what? That is the question....
>>> Each task has its own ideal toolkit. No silver bullet in principle.
>>
>>
>> Your right, and having DWT as 'The Standard' won't stop people from using
>> others.  I think having DWT as a standard is more of a marketing move.
>>
>>
>>> Time changed and as do requirements. I've got a lot of customization
>>> request for example. Having application defined as set of
>>> HTML/CSS/Script declarations opens it for customizations, extnesions
>>> and integration with legacy systems.
>>
>>
>> I think HTMLLayout and Harmonia are simply gorgeous ( I cant find a download
>> for harmonia anymore ? http://www.terrainformatica.com/harmonia/ ) , and I
>> like the idea behind it. I hope you continue developing harmonia.
>>
>> Charlie
>>
>>
>>
>> "Andrew Fedoniouk" <news@terrainformatica.com> wrote in message
>> news:ds5scd$1hak$1@digitaldaemon.com...
>>
>>> "Charles" <noone@nowhere.com> wrote in message
>>> news:ds5b72$124c$1@digitaldaemon.com...
>>>
>>>>> SWT is a part of eclipse application framework (namespace
>>>>> org.eclipse.swt)
>>>>> and I have never seen it being used alone outside of Eclipse.
>>>>> Standalone version of SWT does exist but if anyone point finger
>>>>> on application or project using it I would appreciate it a lot.
>>>>
>>>> Broad statements like this are just asking for trouble :).
>>>>
>>>> http://www.rssowl.org/
>>>> http://azureus.sourceforge.net/
>>>> http://panoptesmgmt.sourceforge.net/
>>>> http://sancho-gui.sourceforge.net/
>>>>
>>>> And there are quite alot of books about it as well.
>>>
>>> Oh, thanks a lot.
>>> Next question: what applications from the list you are using personally?
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/ref=br_ss_hs/103-0362120 
>>
>>
>>> -4087815?platform=gurupa&url=index%3Dstripbooks%3Arelevance-above%26dispat 
>>>
>>
>> ch
>>
>>>> %3Dsearch%26results-process%3Dbin&field-keywords=swt&Go.x=8&Go.y=8
>>>>
>>>> I think your greatly underestimating SWT.
>>>
>>> Negative.
>>>
>>> SWT is nearly ideal for the task it was designed for -
>>> extendable IDE environment for Java.
>>>
>>> I am not using it though.
>>> I need performance at first and I am not interested
>>> in other bells and whistles.
>>>
>>> I am using native code IDEs if you will ask me.
>>> For commercial project we did recently -
>>> Microsoft VisualJ (Visual Studio) - still the best IDE and debugger (deep
>>> IMHO)
>>> And GEL for private java projects (http://www.gexperts.com/)
>>>
>>>> Out of curiousity, what is your ideal GUI toolkit ?
>>>>
>>> For what? That is the question....
>>> Each task has its own ideal toolkit. No silver bullet in principle.
>>>
>>> For BlockNote[.net] I was using WTL as I had design goal to
>>> create native Windows application - drop-in replacement of
>>> notepad.exe and wordpad.exe but for HTML.  So it should
>>> look natively for windows.
>>>
>>> WTL is just thin set of templates wrapping HWND and using
>>> native look and feel as much as possible.
>>> HTML engine in BlockNote by itself is using its own set of classes - its
>>
>> own
>>
>>> toolkit.
>>>
>>> And next version of BlockNote will appear as a set of HTML/CSS/Script
>>> files running in some "smart client" application I am designing now.
>>> You may think about http://www.terrainformatica.com/htmlayout/
>>> as a GUI toolkit for new BlockNote.
>>> Sort of http://www.terrainformatica.com/htmlayout/images/image5.png
>>>
>>> Time changed and as do requirements. I've got a lot of customization
>>> request for example. Having application defined as set of
>>> HTML/CSS/Script declarations opens it for customizations, extnesions
>>> and integration with legacy systems.
>>>
>>> I extended CSS (cascading style sheets) to serve better
>>> apllication UI purposes. E.g. simple animation has been added.
>>> See screenshots http://www.terrainformatica.com/htmlayout/screenshots.whtm
>>> or download demo from the site.
>>>
>>> Andrew.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
> 
> You can get the source through the svn server Andrew has posted there.

I looked at Harmonia and I liked the idea, but
1) There doesn't seem to be any documentation.
2) Doesn't work with build; needs make files (IMO, make files for D == old-school non-sense).
3) It seems abandoned?

Otherwise, I would love to play with it.

"Charles" <noone@nowhere.com> wrote in message news:ds5uch$1kdv$1@digitaldaemon.com...
>> Oh, thanks a lot.
>> Next question: what applications from the list you are using personally?
>
> I use rssowl.

And how is it? I mean "tactile feelings"?
Compared with let's say RSS Reader
(http://www.rssreader.com/) ?

There is nothing spectacular in UI in average RSS reader to be honest.

Except of things like KlipFolio
http://www.serence.com/site.php?action=ser_screens,kf-1
and as you may see they use their own toolkit.

>
> And actually I spoke too soon , SWT is not as popular as I thought it was
> ,
> though I still think its a solid GUI kit.
>
>> I am not using it though.
>> I need performance at first and I am not interested
>> in other bells and whistles.
>
> DWT is likely faster than SWT , I notice a marginal difference on my local machine.

The same here.

If it would be possible to replace Java in Eclipse by D it will be best
marketing factor you can imagine. But this is impossible in 1:1 fashion.
Java has ClassLoader and uses it intensevely in Eclipse.
ClassLoader as an entity is highly useful feature in Java runtime system.
Especially in plugin system of IDE.
But even compiled in native code (Native Eclipse in Fedora Core 4)
is not demonstrating significant gain. I suspect that something wrong
in principle there. Relying solely on GC as a memory management
can make a bad joke when your code will grow to near 50% of
complexity of Eclipse.

>
>> For what? That is the question....
>> Each task has its own ideal toolkit. No silver bullet in principle.
>
> Your right, and having DWT as 'The Standard' won't stop people from using others.  I think having DWT as a standard is more of a marketing move.

Agree.

But SWT when it appeared was "yet another toolkit", not more.
From marketing point of view it was almost nothing.
It started to sound only in Eclipse.
I mean that good IDE for D with debugger
is stronger marketing thing in order of magnitude than any toolkit.
Debugger is the must. IMO (I am not strong in marketing at all).

>
>
>> Time changed and as do requirements. I've got a lot of customization request for example. Having application defined as set of HTML/CSS/Script declarations opens it for customizations, extnesions and integration with legacy systems.
>
> I think HTMLLayout and Harmonia are simply gorgeous ( I cant find a
> download
> for harmonia anymore ? http://www.terrainformatica.com/harmonia/ ) , and I
> like the idea behind it. I hope you continue developing harmonia.
>

Thanks.

svn://harmonia.dyndns.org  shall work.
If you are using Tortoise SVN you can even put this URL in browser or
in console - it should show content automatically.

I had two projects for Harmonia at that moment but D was
dropped in favor of C++. Sad story for me personally but life is life.

I have plans to return to Harmonia - in particular to replace theme/style
there by simple (very simple in fact) theme engine
capable to also render OS native shapes of controls.
I did this for HTMLayout
http://www.terrainformatica.com/htmlayout/images/themesupport.jpg
http://www.terrainformatica.com/htmlayout/images/systabs.jpg
and it is really simple.

Another task: I have also simple "rich text editor" I did once in Java (AWT
only)
I would like to port it as it could also serve as source code highlighting
editor.
A la Scintilla but simpler and compact. And it perfectly fits in D model.

No time line set though...
If someone want to take these tasks - let me know.

Andrew.

"Derek Parnell" <derek@psych.ward> wrote in message news:op.s4f69cx46b8z09@ginger.vic.bigpond.net.au...
> On Sat, 04 Feb 2006 17:58:09 +1100, Walter Bright <newshound@digitalmars.com> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>> I think you're probably right, and this would be a better long term
>> solution
>> than DWT is, so I encourage you to work on it. But we need something now.
>
> I think I'm in general agreement with both Andrew and Walter.
>
> I have written a GUI library for Windows in the Euphoria language. Most people who use it like it very much. So I figure I better start porting it to D. Maybe be later on, some one can add support for other windowing systems (eg. Motif) if they want to.
>
> It could bootstap ideas and other libraries.
>
> -- 

Derek, just as a proposal: can we start from defining
Standard D Graphics Toolkit?
Just pure GX package as a basement of foundation?

We need 2D geometry primitives and Graphics per se.
It is really simple and can be accomplished in one month as
we already have similar code in DWT/DFL/MinWin/Harmonia.
+ probably somethng on your side + may be someone else.
So we can assemeble this really quickly.

And to start from opening Wiki page somewhere with
discussion board.
Probably it is better to use news.digitalmars.com/gui as
it is going to be something standard and common.

Andrew.

On Sun, 5 Feb 2006 17:32:50 -0800, Andrew Fedoniouk wrote:

> Derek, just as a proposal: can we start from defining
> Standard D Graphics Toolkit?
> Just pure GX package as a basement of foundation?

Yes, I suppose so ... but ...

> We need 2D geometry primitives and Graphics per se.
> It is really simple and can be accomplished in one month as
> we already have similar code in DWT/DFL/MinWin/Harmonia.
> + probably somethng on your side + may be someone else.
> So we can assemeble this really quickly.

... the gfx side of a GUI is the easy part. The problematic parts deal with the behaviour of the widgets and the non-graphic elements.

My efforts with the "Win32lib for Euphoria" library was focused on making Windows(tm) programming drop-dead simple to do. And in that I believe I succeeded quite well. I did not try to do the 'owner-drawn' thing or use a primitive gfx API to draw widgets; I just used the bog-standard widgets one gets from Microsoft. Though I did include a mechanism for people to create brand new widget types if they wanted to.

No attempt was made to make it cross-platform.

> And to start from opening Wiki page somewhere with
> discussion board.
> Probably it is better to use news.digitalmars.com/gui as
> it is going to be something standard and common.

If we were going to do a cross platform GUI for D, we would need to decide before anything if we are going to use the target platform's default widgets, or do our own, or a mixture of both.

Over the top of the widget drawing and message passing, we would write the platform agnostic API for D coders to use. I imagine this would be in a different library from the primitives, and that the primitives should be able to be a plug-and-play library loaded at run-time.

So in short, a 2d gfx primitives library would be useful, both for a GUI library and any other gfx usages (eg. a charting program).

-- 
Derek
(skype: derek.j.parnell)
Melbourne, Australia
"Down with mediocracy!"
6/02/2006 1:27:19 PM

"Derek Parnell" <derek@psych.ward> wrote in message news:1g5f1le84n7dm.74cz12d1zy93$.dlg@40tude.net...
> On Sun, 5 Feb 2006 17:32:50 -0800, Andrew Fedoniouk wrote:
>
>> Derek, just as a proposal: can we start from defining
>> Standard D Graphics Toolkit?
>> Just pure GX package as a basement of foundation?
>
> Yes, I suppose so ... but ...
>
>> We need 2D geometry primitives and Graphics per se.
>> It is really simple and can be accomplished in one month as
>> we already have similar code in DWT/DFL/MinWin/Harmonia.
>> + probably somethng on your side + may be someone else.
>> So we can assemeble this really quickly.
>
> ... the gfx side of a GUI is the easy part. The problematic parts deal
> with
> the behaviour of the widgets and the non-graphic elements.
>
> My efforts with the "Win32lib for Euphoria" library was focused on making
> Windows(tm) programming drop-dead simple to do. And in that I believe I
> succeeded quite well. I did not try to do the 'owner-drawn' thing or use a
> primitive gfx API to draw widgets; I just used the bog-standard widgets
> one
> gets from Microsoft. Though I did include a mechanism for people to create
> brand new widget types if they wanted to.
>
> No attempt was made to make it cross-platform.
>
>> And to start from opening Wiki page somewhere with
>> discussion board.
>> Probably it is better to use news.digitalmars.com/gui as
>> it is going to be something standard and common.
>
> If we were going to do a cross platform GUI for D, we would need to decide before anything if we are going to use the target platform's default widgets, or do our own, or a mixture of both.

Let's start from the fact that "Standard D Graphics" has its
own value.
(
 GD package for PHP ( http://ca.php.net/gd ).
 This way SDG can can be used for example in Mango.
 Let's say I have code for rich text editor which
 is loosely coupled with event handling and window
 architecture of any toolkit.
So to use it inside let's say DWT I need a simple
thunk from dwt::GD to std::Graphics and couple
of thunks for events. This is it.
)

So first is SDG as it is really independent module.

Next thing on the road to Standard GUI Framework is

Application Module:
  It contains Application and Window classes.

  Application is a wrapper around main/winmain
  and implementation of message pump. (Get/DispatchMessage)

  Window (or Frame) is a top level OS window.

Application module will not define architecture
of child contols.
This way Application as standard module can be
used in various frameworks - windowed or not.
Application module is #2

And after that we can define
OsWidgets module which will contain wrappers
for native OS "controls" - edit boxes, comboboxes, etc.
OsWidgets is #3

"Harmonia" (or some other name) Module will
use Graphics and Application modules but will
not contain references to OsWidgets module.
"Harmonia" (windowless, lightweight, declarative, ?
module) is #4

Applications which will use OsWidgets may
or may not use also "Harmonia" module runing
it in "Harmonia"Widget which is child window.
Another applications will not use OsWidgets
and will live happily with windowless GUI only.

As you may see we will have 4 basic modules
so application may choose what it needs.

For example application like notepad.exe
will use Application and OsWidgets modules only and
not even Graphics.

So any time you will have as compact as possible binary.

I am not sure if I expalined this clear enough...

>
> Over the top of the widget drawing and message passing, we would write the platform agnostic API for D coders to use. I imagine this would be in a different library from the primitives, and that the primitives should be able to be a plug-and-play library loaded at run-time.
>
> So in short, a 2d gfx primitives library would be useful, both for a GUI library and any other gfx usages (eg. a charting program).

Exactly.

Andrew.

On Sun, 5 Feb 2006 20:31:44 -0800, Andrew Fedoniouk wrote:


[snip]

> Let's start from the fact that "Standard D Graphics" has its
> own value ...
> ... So first is SDG as it is really independent module.
> 
> Next thing on the road to Standard GUI Framework is
> 
> Application Module:
>   It contains Application and Window classes.
> 
>   Application is a wrapper around main/winmain
>   and implementation of message pump. (Get/DispatchMessage)
> 
>   Window (or Frame) is a top level OS window.
> 
 ...
> And after that we can define
> OsWidgets module ...

> I am not sure if I expalined this clear enough...

I think we are one on this. You have explained it well and I agree with the strategy.

Have we enough skills to write a fast 2D library or do we leverage off existing ones? I know I can write a basic graphics library ('cos I've done it a couple of times already) but I've never had to optimize it to the Nth degree as I suspect one would have to for general usage. For example, do we use hardware acceleration when possible or do it all through software? And do we worry about unusual screen geometries (such as multiple screens making a single virtual screen)? I assume a stock 2d library would not be interested in 3d effects (shading, Z-axis, etc...) but it would be interested in anti-aliasing and alpha-blending.

-- 
Derek
(skype: derek.j.parnell)
Melbourne, Australia
"Down with mediocracy!"
6/02/2006 4:11:39 PM

Derek Parnell wrote:
> On Sun, 5 Feb 2006 20:31:44 -0800, Andrew Fedoniouk wrote:
> 
> 
> [snip]
> 
>> Let's start from the fact that "Standard D Graphics" has its
>> own value ...
>> ... So first is SDG as it is really independent module.
>>
>> Next thing on the road to Standard GUI Framework is
>>
>> Application Module:
>>   It contains Application and Window classes.
>>
>>   Application is a wrapper around main/winmain
>>   and implementation of message pump. (Get/DispatchMessage)
>>
>>   Window (or Frame) is a top level OS window.
>>
>  ...  
>> And after that we can define
>> OsWidgets module ...
> 
>> I am not sure if I expalined this clear enough...
> 
> I think we are one on this. You have explained it well and I agree with the
> strategy.
> 
> Have we enough skills to write a fast 2D library or do we leverage off
> existing ones? I know I can write a basic graphics library ('cos I've done
> it a couple of times already) but I've never had to optimize it to the Nth
> degree as I suspect one would have to for general usage. For example, do we
> use hardware acceleration when possible or do it all through software? And
> do we worry about unusual screen geometries (such as multiple screens
> making a single virtual screen)? I assume a stock 2d library would not be
> interested in 3d effects (shading, Z-axis, etc...) but it would be
> interested in anti-aliasing and alpha-blending.
> 

Any graphics library should leverage as much of the current hardware as possible. What I think this means is that the graphics should use opengl as a base, ala Terra.