Seeing that more and more developers and companies look for or actively develop native languages, I wonder will Java go native one day? (Cf. http://docs.oracle.com/cd/A97336_01/buslog.102/a83727/jtools5.htm)

Is this Java's only chance to keep up with Go and Rust (and D)? Performance is an issue, no matter how fast your processor is, Java always lags behind*. And the JVM installation horror is bad enough for developers, but for users? Now Java apps are often shipped with a version of the JRE included, which smells of defeat. If Oracle want to save Java (after so many "unfortunate" decisions), will they finally go native? I can see a market for that. There are still a lot of Java developers out there, there are loads of Java apps, Java has GUI libraries etc.

*Java's sluggish performance was what made me look for alternatives in the first place, and I found D.

Am 18.09.2013 23:33, schrieb Chris:
> Seeing that more and more developers and companies look for or actively
> develop native languages, I wonder will Java go native one day? (Cf.
> http://docs.oracle.com/cd/A97336_01/buslog.102/a83727/jtools5.htm)
>
> Is this Java's only chance to keep up with Go and Rust (and D)?
> Performance is an issue, no matter how fast your processor is, Java
> always lags behind*. And the JVM installation horror is bad enough for
> developers, but for users? Now Java apps are often shipped with a
> version of the JRE included, which smells of defeat. If Oracle want to
> save Java (after so many "unfortunate" decisions), will they finally go
> native? I can see a market for that. There are still a lot of Java
> developers out there, there are loads of Java apps, Java has GUI
> libraries etc.
>
> *Java's sluggish performance was what made me look for alternatives in
> the first place, and I found D.

Java is already native, don't confuse languages with implementations.

Just because the reference implementation happens to be VM only, it does not mean all Java vendors offer plain VMs.

Here are some native compilers for Java and JVMs that do AOT compilation as option:

http://www.excelsior-usa.com/jet.html

http://www.atego.com/products/aonix-perc/

http://www-03.ibm.com/software/products/us/en/real-time/

http://www.robovm.org/

http://jikesrvm.org/

http://www.aicas.com/sites/jamaica.html

http://publib.boulder.ibm.com/infocenter/javasdk/v6r0/index.jsp?topic=%2Fcom.ibm.java.doc.diagnostics.60%2Fdiag%2Fappendixes%2Fcmdline%2Fcommands_jit.html

--
Paulo

On Wednesday, 18 September 2013 at 22:24:08 UTC, Paulo Pinto wrote:
> Am 18.09.2013 23:33, schrieb Chris:
>> Seeing that more and more developers and companies look for or actively
>> develop native languages, I wonder will Java go native one day? (Cf.
>> http://docs.oracle.com/cd/A97336_01/buslog.102/a83727/jtools5.htm)
>>
>> Is this Java's only chance to keep up with Go and Rust (and D)?
>> Performance is an issue, no matter how fast your processor is, Java
>> always lags behind*. And the JVM installation horror is bad enough for
>> developers, but for users? Now Java apps are often shipped with a
>> version of the JRE included, which smells of defeat. If Oracle want to
>> save Java (after so many "unfortunate" decisions), will they finally go
>> native? I can see a market for that. There are still a lot of Java
>> developers out there, there are loads of Java apps, Java has GUI
>> libraries etc.
>>
>> *Java's sluggish performance was what made me look for alternatives in
>> the first place, and I found D.
>
> Java is already native, don't confuse languages with implementations.
>
> Just because the reference implementation happens to be VM only, it does not mean all Java vendors offer plain VMs.
>
> Here are some native compilers for Java and JVMs that do AOT compilation as option:
>
> http://www.excelsior-usa.com/jet.html
>
> http://www.atego.com/products/aonix-perc/
>
> http://www-03.ibm.com/software/products/us/en/real-time/
>
> http://www.robovm.org/
>
> http://jikesrvm.org/
>
> http://www.aicas.com/sites/jamaica.html
>
> http://publib.boulder.ibm.com/infocenter/javasdk/v6r0/index.jsp?topic=%2Fcom.ibm.java.doc.diagnostics.60%2Fdiag%2Fappendixes%2Fcmdline%2Fcommands_jit.html
>
> --
> Paulo

I've heard of excelsior ($2,500+) and other implementations. Sorry, I meant that it will be native as part of the Java SE package, just as D ships with dmd.

On Wednesday, 18 September 2013 at 22:33:46 UTC, Chris wrote:
> On Wednesday, 18 September 2013 at 22:24:08 UTC, Paulo Pinto wrote:
>> Am 18.09.2013 23:33, schrieb Chris:
>>> Seeing that more and more developers and companies look for or actively
>>> develop native languages, I wonder will Java go native one day? (Cf.
>>> http://docs.oracle.com/cd/A97336_01/buslog.102/a83727/jtools5.htm)
>>>
>>> Is this Java's only chance to keep up with Go and Rust (and D)?
>>> Performance is an issue, no matter how fast your processor is, Java
>>> always lags behind*. And the JVM installation horror is bad enough for
>>> developers, but for users? Now Java apps are often shipped with a
>>> version of the JRE included, which smells of defeat. If Oracle want to
>>> save Java (after so many "unfortunate" decisions), will they finally go
>>> native? I can see a market for that. There are still a lot of Java
>>> developers out there, there are loads of Java apps, Java has GUI
>>> libraries etc.
>>>
>>> *Java's sluggish performance was what made me look for alternatives in
>>> the first place, and I found D.
>>
>> Java is already native, don't confuse languages with implementations.
>>
>> Just because the reference implementation happens to be VM only, it does not mean all Java vendors offer plain VMs.
>>
>> Here are some native compilers for Java and JVMs that do AOT compilation as option:
>>
>> http://www.excelsior-usa.com/jet.html
>>
>> http://www.atego.com/products/aonix-perc/
>>
>> http://www-03.ibm.com/software/products/us/en/real-time/
>>
>> http://www.robovm.org/
>>
>> http://jikesrvm.org/
>>
>> http://www.aicas.com/sites/jamaica.html
>>
>> http://publib.boulder.ibm.com/infocenter/javasdk/v6r0/index.jsp?topic=%2Fcom.ibm.java.doc.diagnostics.60%2Fdiag%2Fappendixes%2Fcmdline%2Fcommands_jit.html
>>
>> --
>> Paulo
>
> I've heard of excelsior ($2,500+) and other implementations. Sorry, I meant that it will be native as part of the Java SE package, just as D ships with dmd.

Thanks for the links, btw. This all shows that there is a serious demand for Java as native code (cf. "The RoboVM compiler translates Java bytecode into native ARM or x86 code. Apps run directly on the CPU. No interpreter or virtual machine involved.")

On 18 September 2013 22:33, Chris <wendlec@tcd.ie> wrote:
> Seeing that more and more developers and companies look for or actively develop native languages, I wonder will Java go native one day? (Cf. http://docs.oracle.com/cd/A97336_01/buslog.102/a83727/jtools5.htm)
>
> Is this Java's only chance to keep up with Go and Rust (and D)? Performance is an issue, no matter how fast your processor is, Java always lags behind*. And the JVM installation horror is bad enough for developers, but for users? Now Java apps are often shipped with a version of the JRE included, which smells of defeat. If Oracle want to save Java (after so many "unfortunate" decisions), will they finally go native? I can see a market for that. There are still a lot of Java developers out there, there are loads of Java apps, Java has GUI libraries etc.
>
> *Java's sluggish performance was what made me look for alternatives in the first place, and I found D.

Java itelf is a very basic language to allow this to be possible.  But the library implementation denies this, and I don't see native support beyond JNI.

-- 
Iain Buclaw

*(p < e ? p++ : p) = (c & 0x0f) + '0';

On 9/18/2013 2:33 PM, Chris wrote:
> Seeing that more and more developers and companies look for or actively develop
> native languages, I wonder will Java go native one day? (Cf.
> http://docs.oracle.com/cd/A97336_01/buslog.102/a83727/jtools5.htm)

I wrote a native Java compiler in the 90's that was released by Symantec. There wasn't much interest in it.

On 19-9-2013 2:25, Walter Bright wrote:
> On 9/18/2013 2:33 PM, Chris wrote:
>> Seeing that more and more developers and companies look for or actively develop
>> native languages, I wonder will Java go native one day? (Cf.
>> http://docs.oracle.com/cd/A97336_01/buslog.102/a83727/jtools5.htm)
>
> I wrote a native Java compiler in the 90's that was released by Symantec. There wasn't much interest in it.

I remember that. It was part of Visual Cafe. I did use it to create a command line app for a client.
It was very convenient to be able to ship a regular executable that needed no further instructions.

On 9/18/2013 6:01 PM, Jos van Uden wrote:
> On 19-9-2013 2:25, Walter Bright wrote:
>> On 9/18/2013 2:33 PM, Chris wrote:
>>> Seeing that more and more developers and companies look for or actively develop
>>> native languages, I wonder will Java go native one day? (Cf.
>>> http://docs.oracle.com/cd/A97336_01/buslog.102/a83727/jtools5.htm)
>>
>> I wrote a native Java compiler in the 90's that was released by Symantec.
>> There wasn't much interest in it.
>
> I remember that. It was part of Visual Cafe. I did use it to create a command
> line app for a client.
> It was very convenient to be able to ship a regular executable that needed no
> further instructions.

I'm glad you liked it!

On Wednesday, 18 September 2013 at 23:53:35 UTC, Iain Buclaw wrote:
> On 18 September 2013 22:33, Chris <wendlec@tcd.ie> wrote:
>> Seeing that more and more developers and companies look for or actively
>> develop native languages, I wonder will Java go native one day? (Cf.
>> http://docs.oracle.com/cd/A97336_01/buslog.102/a83727/jtools5.htm)
>>
>> Is this Java's only chance to keep up with Go and Rust (and D)? Performance
>> is an issue, no matter how fast your processor is, Java always lags behind*.
>> And the JVM installation horror is bad enough for developers, but for users?
>> Now Java apps are often shipped with a version of the JRE included, which
>> smells of defeat. If Oracle want to save Java (after so many "unfortunate"
>> decisions), will they finally go native? I can see a market for that. There
>> are still a lot of Java developers out there, there are loads of Java apps,
>> Java has GUI libraries etc.
>>
>> *Java's sluggish performance was what made me look for alternatives in the
>> first place, and I found D.
>
> Java itelf is a very basic language to allow this to be possible.  But
> the library implementation denies this, and I don't see native support
> beyond JNI.

Why, given the fact that I can buy native compilers?

--
Paulo

On Thursday, 19 September 2013 at 00:25:57 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
> On 9/18/2013 2:33 PM, Chris wrote:
>> Seeing that more and more developers and companies look for or actively develop
>> native languages, I wonder will Java go native one day? (Cf.
>> http://docs.oracle.com/cd/A97336_01/buslog.102/a83727/jtools5.htm)
>
> I wrote a native Java compiler in the 90's that was released by Symantec. There wasn't much interest in it.

Sorry to say this, but this was only because people had to pay for it.

I have been part of the Java land since the beginning.

Given that Sun made the SDK available for free, and much projects in Java land are FOSS, there is this culture of free (as in beer).

Java Shops only pay for commercial Java tooling when:

- There is no free JVM available. Common scenario in embedded systems;

- The project requirements state a certain piece of software is to be used, like specific J2EE and CMS servers

- The paid alternatives offer features worth their price (InteliJ)

If the reference SDK provided by Sun, now Oracle, had a native code compiler as part of their toolset, you would see much more interest on them.

From my list on the previous post, most compilers are commercial and as such,
are only bought if the project requirements say so.

For example, Sun/Oracle don't have any offering for the market Aonix and Aicas cover.

--
Paulo