"Stewart Gordon" <smjg_1998@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:elvmdi$1t5g$1@digitaldaemon.com...

While I agree that Walter _does_ dodge issues well and often, I usually find myself cringing more reading your posts than Walter's.  You're so full of yourself, you're going to have to get some buckets to catch the excess.

rm wrote:
> I don't know what you are trying to proof. But concerning Walter you've proven nothing. I don't even know whether there is at least some truth in statements. And I won't bother reading them, the title sets the tone.
<snip>

Why did you bother posting that comment then?

Stewart.

Brad Anderson wrote:
> Stewart Gordon wrote:
>> It's time to make a list of Walter's habits that continually annoy us.
> 
> Stewart,
> 
> I look forward to using your uber-perfect, properly-spelled, on-time,
> under-budget, please-everyone programming language. 

I think that just may be possible, for _realistic_ values of "on-time".

> You can call it E.
<snip>

Is it just rumours, or is the name E already taken?

Stewart.

I have been using D for over a year now (maybe 2), some in commercial projects and some not in commercial projects. I think the release schedule that Walter maintains is pretty impressive. Honestly I don't know how he stays so focused on the language. I quickly tire out on things I'm working on if I work too much on it.

Sure I think every programmer has annoying habits. (in fact, one of my annoying habits is that I insist on using a language -- D -- which makes it difficult for us to hire more programmers.) I have other annoying habits too, like deleting other programmers code because I didn't like how it looked, or saying the  project will be done in 1 day and it takes me a week... oh well... no one is perfect.

Of all of the ideas you posted, I think that the only one that has validity is the not integrating patches others have written. He does from time to time, but not always, and I understand why too... I have idiot programmers that I work with, and I LOATHE when they have a new patch for me to integrate, because they never get my formatting correct, they leave retarded comments ("this is the x variable!!!") and generally cruft up my code... The thing that pisses me off the most is when they use isFriend when I'm using is_friend... or they even go so far as to write it in spanish esAmigo. I don't integrate that crap no matter what they say... I rewrite it, and when I rewrite it, I often find they implemented it quickly and didn't think about the future of the feature and it usually has bugs... I don't know if that's the case for walter, but I understand completely.

Walter is one man though, so he may start integrating more patches in the future as the language grows. It's hard for me to lose control of something I wrote over 90% of, and I'm sure walter feels the same way -- so I'm sure it will be on his own time he integrates the patches.

Just thought I'd throw my ideas out there. I really enjoy the language of D, and I didn't really get to express my gratitude much other ways...

Thanks Walter, I've loved almost every bit of D so far, and it's definitely my preferred language.

Kenny Bentley

Hmm...

I'm guessing Stewart had a bad day, and a recent response by Walter was the last straw.  That has happened before, you know :). It's just never been stated so starkly and vehemently as in this new thread; although I'm sure that if people were honest with themselves, they would admit that they have had the same thoughts before.  If Stewart had embedded such comments in a long tortuos thread of agonizing head-banging, I believe his statements would have been almost tolerated.

Hmm... something strange about this.

Also, the statement was alarmingly out of place in terms of timing. I felt like I'd been slapped in the face when I read it.  For the most part, this community has been very excited with the current momentum of Walter's work.  You can feel it: the energy is there.  While there is never really a good time for a post like Stewarts, I think this was particularly ill-timed.

Hmmm... some ulterior motive?

And the last bit about the spelling?  That's when I started to question what was really going on here.  Number one rule: you want to get people to support your opinion, DON'T BE PETTY ABOUT A PERSON'S SPELLING (especially when most people don't know what bad spelling is being referred to).  It really gets everyone else self-conscious and annoyed.  Stewart, you pushed everyone to side with Walter... :)

Hmmm... there's definitely something afoot!

Either that or your post was merely a "behavioral studies" experiment to see the predictability of response from a community whose leader has been directly attacked. Nooo, wait a minute....

Hmmm... Oh, wait, wait, wait.... I think I get it now! How very clever! Stewart, You are a genius!  You just succeeded in the grand unification of the D community before D 1.0. LOL!

-JJR

Thank you for being the first to take my post seriously.

Kenny Bentley wrote:
> I have been using D for over a year now (maybe 2), some in commercial projects and some not in commercial projects. I think the release schedule that Walter maintains is pretty impressive. Honestly I don't know how he stays so focused on the language. I quickly tire out on things I'm working on if I work too much on it.

Indeed.  I lose count of the projects I've tired of in my time and not got back into for a while.

> Sure I think every programmer has annoying habits. (in fact, one of my annoying habits is that I insist on using a language -- D -- which makes it difficult for us to hire more programmers.)

Does your company provide on-the-job training?  What are your entry requirements?

> I have other annoying habits too, like deleting other programmers code because I didn't like how it looked, or saying the  project will be done in 1 day and it takes me a week... oh well... no one is perfect.

Indeed.  But sometimes people are just careless.  While some of my points may well be just human error, I'm quite sure some of the habits are kickable with not too much effort.

> Of all of the ideas you posted, I think that the only one that has validity is the not integrating patches others have written. He does from time to time, but not always, and I understand why too... I have idiot programmers that I work with, and I LOATHE when they have a new patch for me to integrate, because they never get my formatting correct, they leave retarded comments ("this is the x variable!!!") and generally cruft up my code...

Yes, some people do write silly comments.  During my PhD I found something like this in the Fortran code used by my department:

#ifdef PARALLEL
! INITIALIZE MPI IF 'PARALLEL' HAS BEEN DEFINED
    CALL INITIALIZE_MPI
#endif

> The thing that pisses me off the most is when they use isFriend when I'm using is_friend... or they even go so far as to write it in spanish esAmigo. I don't integrate that crap no matter what they say... I rewrite it, and when I rewrite it, I often find they implemented it quickly and didn't think about the future of the feature and it usually has bugs... I don't know if that's the case for walter, but I understand completely.

But do you ever look at the code they write to see if they've got _good_ ideas on how to implement it?

> Walter is one man though, so he may start integrating more patches in the future as the language grows. It's hard for me to lose control of something I wrote over 90% of, and I'm sure walter feels the same way -- so I'm sure it will be on his own time he integrates the patches.

Being in control doesn't have to mean doing it practically on your own.   You don't need too many cooks to spoil the broth - too few cooks work just as well.

> Just thought I'd throw my ideas out there. I really enjoy the language of D, and I didn't really get to express my gratitude much other ways...
> 
> Thanks Walter, I've loved almost every bit of D so far, and it's definitely my preferred language.

Same here.  It's just those odd bits of it that stick out like sore thumbs.

Stewart.

John Reimer wrote:
> [...]
> Either that or your post was merely a "behavioral studies" experiment to see the predictability of response from a community whose leader has been directly attacked. Nooo, wait a minute....
> 
> Hmmm... Oh, wait, wait, wait.... I think I get it now! How very clever! Stewart, You are a genius!  You just succeeded in the grand unification of the D community before D 1.0. LOL!
> 
> -JJR

LOL, yea. Hahaha. Great. ... but wait! Maybe Stewart IS Walter?!

Oh noes.


Whatever. This thread still says "I fail!!!111~", imho.

Alex

Stewart Gordon wrote:
> It's time to make a list of Walter's habits that continually annoy us. Here are some of my peeves, to start it off:
> 
> 
> 1. Dodging issues, including important ones such as
> 
> http://www.digitalmars.com/webnews/newsgroups.php?art_group=digitalmars.D.bugs&article_id=9360 
> 
> http://www.digitalmars.com/webnews/newsgroups.php?art_group=digitalmars.D&article_id=41553 
> 
> 
> (Why is webnews showing only two messages from this in the thread view, even when viewing the message?)
> 
> 2. Denying responsibility for his
> own slip-ups.  For example, marking what's left of
> 
> http://d.puremagic.com/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=327
> 
> INVALID despite this being due to an obvious mistake he made while updating the spec, as well as violating the design of D.  No doubt there are other instances, but I can't seem to think of them at the moment.
> 
> 
> 3. Otherwise hitting the INVALID 'button' without properly analysing things, meaning that it becomes necessary to reopen.
> 
> 
> 4. Implementing his own ideas but keeping even constructive criticism - let alone implementation - of other people's ideas to a minimum.
> 
> 
> 5. Implementing new features when he should be concentrating on getting things working properly.
> 
> 
> 6. Postponing indefinitely, for no apparent reason, folding in fixes people have gone to all the trouble to write.
> 
> 
> 7. Not using a spellchecker.
> 
> 
> 8. Apparently never learning from the spelling corrections we keep giving him.
> 
> (Please forgive me if you _have_ since heeded the advice in
> http://d.puremagic.com/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=631
> )
> 
> 
> More contributions to this list would be more than welcome!
> 
> Stewart.

While I told myself I wasn't going to go here, I am.

I think the idea behind this post is that since we have a one man development organization, we could improve D as a whole by improving the man. This is simply ridiculous. Think about what you are saying Stewart. You're basically asking a stranger to change himself (presumably to conform to your idea of better) because it would (again presumably) have a good effect on the product he creates.

Asking these sort of things of an *organization* that releases a product is reasonable, as the *organization* has the ability to adapt as an organization of multiple people which has a character independent of its parts. So asking for better documentation, a more intimate relationship with its clients, or any other things makes sense.

But for you, the consumer of the product of a one man team, to ask that person to change the very personal "bad habits" of his individual nature is absurd.

As others have pointed out, you don't flipping /pay/ Walter *anything*. He can do whatever he damn well pleases so, yes, he may or may not exhibit characteristics which you would change, he is not beholden to you or any of us to change himself to suit your idea of perfect.

Once and only when you become Walter's client, then you may act within your prerogative as a paying customer. However, were I to have you as a client and you came to my house (or my forum) and started to tell me how to write my code, live my life, and relate to people, I would (depending on my mood) politely show you the door, get my gun, and/or cancel your account.

Think before you speak.

John Reimer wrote:
> Hmm...
> 
> I'm guessing Stewart had a bad day, and a recent response by Walter was the last straw.  That has happened before, you know :). It's just never been stated so starkly and vehemently as in this new thread; although I'm sure that if people were honest with themselves, they would admit that they have had the same thoughts before.  If Stewart had embedded such comments in a long tortuos thread of agonizing head-banging, I believe his statements would have been almost tolerated.
> 
> Hmm... something strange about this.
> 
> Also, the statement was alarmingly out of place in terms of timing. I felt like I'd been slapped in the face when I read it.  For the most part, this community has been very excited with the current momentum of Walter's work.  You can feel it: the energy is there.  While there is never really a good time for a post like Stewarts, I think this was particularly ill-timed.
> 
> Hmmm... some ulterior motive?
> 
> And the last bit about the spelling?  That's when I started to question what was really going on here.  Number one rule: you want to get people to support your opinion, DON'T BE PETTY ABOUT A PERSON'S SPELLING (especially when most people don't know what bad spelling is being referred to).  It really gets everyone else self-conscious and annoyed.  Stewart, you pushed everyone to side with Walter... :)
> 
> Hmmm... there's definitely something afoot!
> 
> Either that or your post was merely a "behavioral studies" experiment to see the predictability of response from a community whose leader has been directly attacked. Nooo, wait a minute....
> 
> Hmmm... Oh, wait, wait, wait.... I think I get it now! How very clever! Stewart, You are a genius!  You just succeeded in the grand unification of the D community before D 1.0. LOL!
> 
> -JJR

You, sir, *DELIVER*.

Rant,

All these seem petty to me, like complaining about someones formating style.  If its useful then that's 100% better then not having it.

Ok, maybe slightly off topic:

Just my opinion,
Knew one guy who spent a week reformatting (no design patterns just tabs and naming conversions) everyone else code, and how did that help the project?  As a further frustration some other coder who decided that his formating style was superior so re-did the entire code style again a month later.  While these programmers where obviously not professional I wonder how far the project would have got if their time had actually been spend fixing bugs or adding features.

Its all about making efficient use of ones time. Spending hours browsing fixing typos is not a good use of time.  And it won't save much time in the future (unlike good conventions on code design).  Also who knows when the page will completely change.  Users who spot things like spelling mistakes should report them, and Walter can get to them when he's working on that page.

Now playing devils advocate now, people can be petty, and unfortunately  D needs every user it can get.  I find this gen is strong with programmers.  Therefore the quality of the D website (spelling ect...) can turn these people types away.

-Joel