On Thursday, 9 November 2017 at 14:42:41 UTC, Joakim wrote:
> As I said earlier, the mobile OS story is not over yet, there are more changes to come.

Yeah...like more factories making more dongles.

You want a dongle?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XSC_UG5_kU

On Friday, 10 November 2017 at 01:19:06 UTC, codephantom wrote:
>
> Well, everytime I wanted to find something, I had to google it...
>
> Then I realised I had to pay for it as well...and, that's when i gave up.

Bill Gates wasn't the richest man in the world for so long without reason. ;)

On Tuesday, 7 November 2017 at 19:10:50 UTC, bauss wrote:
> See:
> https://github.com/mysql-d/mysql-native/issues/100
>
> There's also reported issues like this one:
> https://issues.dlang.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15183

Walter said somewhere that submitting objs should be enough.

On Sunday, 5 November 2017 at 14:19:11 UTC, MrSmith wrote:
> On Saturday, 4 November 2017 at 08:16:16 UTC, Joakim wrote:
>> I was intrigued by someone saying in this thread that Go supports Win64 COFF out of the box, so I just tried it out in wine and indeed it works with their hello world example.  Running "go build -x" shows that they ship a link.exe for Win64 with their Win64 zip, guess it's the Mingw one?
>
> Does Go need WinSDK though?

It looks like integration with lld was fixed in ldc 1.5 release.

Apple had a big benefit on mobile with their iTunes store that had already been established on Desktop and the very popular iPod. They also had rich USA buyers who bought more apps than users of the other platforms which encouraged developers to target iOS. And they had the Apple/Jobs mystique.

On Wednesday, 8 November 2017 at 09:34:39 UTC, Joakim wrote:
>>>>>> Why did they fund development of a new iMac Pro which is coming this December as well as the new MacBook Pros that came out this June? That's a contradiction of "milk it like an iPod".
>>>>>
>>>>> Because their userbase was rebelling?  I take it you're not that familiar with Mac users, but they were genuinely scared that Apple was leaving them behind, since they weren't refreshing Mac and Macbooks much anymore and all Apple's focus is on iOS:
>>>>
>>>> So, let them rebel. You said that they would like to see it go away, and/or they want to milk it. If you have to spend money on development to keep selling it, then you can't "milk it".
>>>
>>> You and I and Jobs may've let them rebel, but Apple is a public corporation.  They can't just let easy money go, their shareholders may not like it. Perhaps you're not too familiar with legacy calculations, but they're probably still making good money off Macs, but it just distracts and keeps good Apple devs off the real cash cow, iPhone.  Even if the Mac financials aren't _that_ great anymore, you don't necessarily want to piss off your oldest and most loyal customers, who may stop buying iPhones and iPads too.
>>
>> It would either be you and Jobs, or just you, letting them rebel. I would keep the line.
>
> That's funny, as I was responding to your statement above, "So, let them rebel." :D

"Let them rebel" was with regard to your point of view. As demonstrated by the sentence I put after it: "You said that they would like to see it go away, and/or they want to milk it." You said that Apple would be happy to see it go away. Then you added that they were "milking" the line while they could. Satisfying rebelling users doesn't jive with either position. They rebel and you want to get rid of it - and you get rid of it. They rebel wanting changes, and you only want to keep milk it while you can - then you get rid of it, because you can't milk what you have.

>
>> The large Apple profit comes from offering quality products and then pricing them at the highest gross profit margin in the industry. In order to get people to pay a premium for their products it helps to have a mystique or following, and the macOS line helps to maintain their mystique and it is small potatoes next to their phone business.
>
> I've already said repeatedly that they're not going to drop the Mac line anytime soon, so I don't know why you want to write a paragraph justifying keeping it.

My post was in response to this statement of yours "Simple, they see the writing on the wall, ie much smaller sales than mobile, SO THEY WANT THE LEGACY PRODUCT TO GO AWAY, which means they can focus on the much bigger mobile market." That seems to be a contradiction to "they're not going to drop the Mac line anytime soon".

> As for mystique, it is laughable that you think this outdated Mac line that practically nobody buys compared to the iPhone provides any. :) More likely, they will keep milking the Mac-buying chumps till they stop, or when they can just tell them to buy an iPhone with a multi-window option instead.

"Nobody buys" Rolls Royces, but they have a lot of mystique. Mystique isn't measured by sales volume.

If people ever get so cost-conscious that they decide to buy a $150 companion for their phone, instead of a $400 laptop, it's unlikely they will be using iPhones. You can get a nice Android phone with plenty of RAM/ROM for half the price of an  iPhone.

On 10/11/2017 10:42 AM, Tony wrote:
> If people ever get so cost-conscious that they decide to buy a $150 companion for their phone, instead of a $400 laptop, it's unlikely they will be using iPhones. You can get a nice Android phone with plenty of RAM/ROM for half the price of an  iPhone.

You can do pretty decently for $60-80usd if you know where to look with Android. But the reality is for developers, desktops are going no where. If anything, we'll see more server workstations becoming standard for developers. I know, I have one. Well worth it if you do anything decent.

On Wednesday, 8 November 2017 at 09:34:39 UTC, Joakim wrote:


>
> I see, so your claim is that MS, Nokia, HP, Sony, all much larger companies than Apple or Google at the time, could not have countered them even on a lucky day.  I wonder why this is, as they certainly had more money, you don't believe they're that bright? :)

Google bought Android from a startup of sharp programmers. There are only so many mobile operating systems and operating systems are not easy to develop. Jobs got back into Apple because they had failed in an attempt to replace OS 9 and Jobs had a talented software team and an OS from his failing Next company. Nokia had a big internal effort to replace Symbian (which had multi-tasking from the beginning, unlike iOS) due to some flaw that it could only handle 640 x 360 screens (bigger than the first couple iPhone generations). But one effort failed and another, based on Linux came too late to survive being cut at the same time the new CEO from Microsoft announced that Symbian would be discontinued and replaced by Windows Mobile.



> On Wednesday, 8 November 2017 at 07:04:24 UTC, Tony wrote:
>> On Monday, 6 November 2017 at 08:33:16 UTC, Joakim wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> The vast majority of users would be covered by 5-10 GBs of available storage, which is why the lowest tier of even the luxury iPhone was 16 GBs until last year.  Every time I talk to normal people, ie non-techies unlike us, and ask them how much storage they have in their device, whether smartphone, tablet, or laptop, they have no idea.  If I look in the device, I inevitably find they're only using something like 3-5 GBs max, out of the 20-100+ GBs they have available.
>>
>> You are making an assumption that people want as much storage for a combo phone/PC as they do for only a phone. You need to also check how much storage they are using on their PCs.
>
> You need to read what I actually wrote, I was talking about laptops too.  I don't go to people's homes and check their desktops, but their laptops fall under the same low-storage umbrella, and laptops are 80% of PCs sold these days.
>
OK, I see you did mention laptops. It isn't my case and I find it hard to believe that people are being sold ever larger disk drives when they can survive with a 32GB flash rom.

>>>> I never made any previous claim about what IDEs are being used. The only time I previously mentioned an IDE was with regard to RemObjects and Embarcadero offering cross-compilation to Android/iOS with their products.
>>>>
>>>> "There is a case to be made for supporting  Android/iOS cross-compilation. But it doesn't have to come at the expense of Windows 64-bit integration. Not sure they even involve the same skillsets. Embarcadero and Remobjects both now support Android/iOS development from their Windows (and macOS in the case of Remobjects) IDEs."
>>>>
>>>> That was to highlight that those two compiler companies have seen fit to also cross-compile to mobile - they saw an importance to mobile development. It wasn't about what IDEs are best for mobile or even what IDEs are being used for mobile.
>>>
>>> If you look back to the first mention of IDES, it was your statement, "Good luck selling game developers on using D to develop for Android, when you can't supply those same game developers a top-notch development environment for the premier platform for performance critical games - Windows 64-bit."
>>>
>>> That at least implies that they're using the same IDE to target both mobile and PC gaming, which is what I was disputing.  If you agree that they use completely different toolchains, then it is irrelevant whether D supports Windows-focused IDEs, as it doesn't affect mobile-focused devs.
>>
>> My statements quoted didn't mention IDEs and they didn't imply IDEs. What was implied was the initial line in the first post "* better dll support for Windows". My assumption is that game developers (or just developers) work on multiple OSes. If you want them to use a language - like D - they should find it compelling to use on all their platforms.
>
> Your statement was made in direct response to my question, "why spend time getting D great Windows IDE support if you don't think Windows has much of a future?"

What does IDE support refer to? You didn't say "get good Windows IDEs". In any event, I was talking about DLLs and related Windows issues that you would encounter using Vim and D.

> I've already said I don't think there's much overlap between mobile and PC games, the markets are fairly disjoint.  The top mobile games are never released for PC and vice versa.

I never said the games have overlap. I said the developers have overlap.


> As for dll support, that was not mentioned at all in the OT thread to which you were responding, and you never called it out.

Never called what out? You were saying that Windows was going down by 99% in some unstated timeframe and I challenged that notion. The first and second posts in this thread mention DLL support and I seem to recall people talking about other issues after that besides DLL support - and not about IDEs. You need to clearly demarcate your "OT thread" in a thread and put what context you will consider valid in it.


> As for flat UIs, you really should be aware of the effect your beloved Metro has had:
>
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_design
>
I don't see any relationship between that iOS picture in the Wiki article and Metro. The idea is RESIZABLE, LIVE tiles. Not effects to make them look 3D or not.

On Friday, 10 November 2017 at 10:42:37 UTC, Tony wrote:
> On Wednesday, 8 November 2017 at 09:34:39 UTC, Joakim wrote:
>>>>>>> Why did they fund development of a new iMac Pro which is coming this December as well as the new MacBook Pros that came out this June? That's a contradiction of "milk it like an iPod".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Because their userbase was rebelling?  I take it you're not that familiar with Mac users, but they were genuinely scared that Apple was leaving them behind, since they weren't refreshing Mac and Macbooks much anymore and all Apple's focus is on iOS:
>>>>>
>>>>> So, let them rebel. You said that they would like to see it go away, and/or they want to milk it. If you have to spend money on development to keep selling it, then you can't "milk it".
>>>>
>>>> You and I and Jobs may've let them rebel, but Apple is a public corporation.  They can't just let easy money go, their shareholders may not like it. Perhaps you're not too familiar with legacy calculations, but they're probably still making good money off Macs, but it just distracts and keeps good Apple devs off the real cash cow, iPhone.  Even if the Mac financials aren't _that_ great anymore, you don't necessarily want to piss off your oldest and most loyal customers, who may stop buying iPhones and iPads too.
>>>
>>> It would either be you and Jobs, or just you, letting them rebel. I would keep the line.
>>
>> That's funny, as I was responding to your statement above, "So, let them rebel." :D
>
> "Let them rebel" was with regard to your point of view. As demonstrated by the sentence I put after it: "You said that they would like to see it go away, and/or they want to milk it." You said that Apple would be happy to see it go away. Then you added that they were "milking" the line while they could. Satisfying rebelling users doesn't jive with either position. They rebel and you want to get rid of it - and you get rid of it. They rebel wanting changes, and you only want to keep milk it while you can - then you get rid of it, because you can't milk what you have.

Your logic is extremely confused.  Let me spell it out for you: the Mac is all but dead, particularly when compared to the mobile computing tidal wave, since they sell 10 iPhones + iPads for every Mac, according to the sales link I gave you before.  They have cut investment in that legacy Mac product, but they would like to keep selling a lower-quality product at high prices to the few chumps that still maintain the old Mac aura in their heads.

So that is what they do, milk the suckers still paying high prices for a rarely refreshed product with a lot more bugs.  I don't know what's hard to understand about this for you.  When the Mac userbase rebels, they try to calm them down and say they're coming out with a new Mac Pro _next year_, five years since the last one!

Apple is a business.  As long as the Mac faithful are still willing to pay a lot of money for lower-quality products, they will gladly take their money, even though it's now just a sideline for their real business, the iPhone.  Of course, they'd rather just focus on the iPhone, but if they can take a lot of devs off macOS and still milk those suckers, why wouldn't they?

Apple is all about making money, which is why they're the largest company in the world, with some forecasting that they will soon be the first company to have a market cap of... one trillion dollars!!! insertDoctorEvilPinkie();

>>> The large Apple profit comes from offering quality products and then pricing them at the highest gross profit margin in the industry. In order to get people to pay a premium for their products it helps to have a mystique or following, and the macOS line helps to maintain their mystique and it is small potatoes next to their phone business.
>>
>> I've already said repeatedly that they're not going to drop the Mac line anytime soon, so I don't know why you want to write a paragraph justifying keeping it.
>
> My post was in response to this statement of yours "Simple, they see the writing on the wall, ie much smaller sales than mobile, SO THEY WANT THE LEGACY PRODUCT TO GO AWAY, which means they can focus on the much bigger mobile market." That seems to be a contradiction to "they're not going to drop the Mac line anytime soon".

No contradiction: they want the Mac to go away, but are happy to keep supplementing their bottom line while pulling engineers off of it, just like the iPod Touch.

You seem to be confused by the fact that a business sometimes has contradictory goals- should we focus exclusively on the iPhone and make more money there or keep the Mac limping along too?- and tries to balance the two as long as it makes sense.

>> As for mystique, it is laughable that you think this outdated Mac line that practically nobody buys compared to the iPhone provides any. :) More likely, they will keep milking the Mac-buying chumps till they stop, or when they can just tell them to buy an iPhone with a multi-window option instead.
>
> "Nobody buys" Rolls Royces, but they have a lot of mystique. Mystique isn't measured by sales volume.

On the contrary, Apple people have long talked about a halo effect from the iPod and iPhone, where their new, exciting, and much more popular mobile products have helped raise sales for their old and flagging Mac line:

https://www.cultofmac.com/22331/apples-iphone-halo-effect-boosts-mac-sales-16-4-percent/

> If people ever get so cost-conscious that they decide to buy a $150 companion for their phone, instead of a $400 laptop, it's unlikely they will be using iPhones. You can get a nice Android phone with plenty of RAM/ROM for half the price of an  iPhone.

Sure, the hypothetical iPhone with multiwindow/dock and the iPad Pro replace the expensive Macbook or Surface Pro, while the Android phone you already have along with something like Dex/Sentio replaces cheaper Windows PCs.  I already made this point earlier.

On Friday, 10 November 2017 at 10:50:52 UTC, rikki cattermole wrote:
> On 10/11/2017 10:42 AM, Tony wrote:
>> If people ever get so cost-conscious that they decide to buy a $150 companion for their phone, instead of a $400 laptop, it's unlikely they will be using iPhones. You can get a nice Android phone with plenty of RAM/ROM for half the price of an  iPhone.
>
> You can do pretty decently for $60-80usd if you know where to look with Android. But the reality is for developers, desktops are going no where. If anything, we'll see more server workstations becoming standard for developers. I know, I have one. Well worth it if you do anything decent.

And yet I'd guess that the majority of developers already do most of their work on laptops, which are in turn being eclipsed by mobile chips, as I'm able to get by just fine writing and building C++/D code on an Android/ARM tablet.  So while you and a few others may need a core i7, 32 GB RAM desktop, most devs already don't use those.

I'm sure there are a few people out there still buying Sun, HP-UX, or UNIX workstations, the guy running a honking core i7 desktop PC is going to become like them: an antique.

On Friday, 10 November 2017 at 11:10:30 UTC, Tony wrote:

> I don't see any relationship between that iOS picture in the Wiki article and Metro. The idea is RESIZABLE, LIVE tiles. Not effects to make them look 3D or not.

"live tile" meaning the underlying app can dynamically put readable information in the tile. Such as the most recent sender of email and subject, the most recent headline, the item at the top of your todo list, a calendar reminder, current weather information.