Article: http://www.linux.com/feature/124320

Reddit: http://programming.reddit.com/info/65uh7/comments/

Digg: http://digg.com/programming/D_programming_language_pumps_up_programmer_productivity

Walter Bright wrote:
> Article: http://www.linux.com/feature/124320
> 
> Reddit: http://programming.reddit.com/info/65uh7/comments/
> 
> Digg: http://digg.com/programming/D_programming_language_pumps_up_programmer_productivity 
> 

Note in the comments how someone (not me I promise!) latches on to the specious arguments in the FAQ for why strings need to be included as a language feature.  Those dubious arguments should be removed.  A better argument is that it allows compile-time string manipulation.

--bb

Bill Baxter wrote:
> Walter Bright wrote:
>> Article: http://www.linux.com/feature/124320
>>
>> Reddit: http://programming.reddit.com/info/65uh7/comments/
>>
>> Digg: http://digg.com/programming/D_programming_language_pumps_up_programmer_productivity 
>>
> 
> Note in the comments how someone (not me I promise!) latches on to the specious arguments in the FAQ for why strings need to be included as a language feature.  Those dubious arguments should be removed.  A better argument is that it allows compile-time string manipulation.

i'm not argumenting against that, but i think it's rather impressive, that the mere inclusion of std::string and std::vector bloats a single c++ file to >480kb after preprocessing. considering the simple and fundamental nature of these things, that is already bad enough for me to want built-in dynamic arrays and strings.

"Walter Bright" <newshound1@digitalmars.com> wrote in message news:fmpqf1$1skg$1@digitalmars.com...
> Article: http://www.linux.com/feature/124320
>
> Reddit: http://programming.reddit.com/info/65uh7/comments/

Dunno whether I am imagining this but the discusion comments regarding D seem to be more positive these days. There also seems to be more people who have actualy tried D replying.

Jascha Wetzel wrote:
> Bill Baxter wrote:
>> Walter Bright wrote:
>>> Article: http://www.linux.com/feature/124320
>>>
>>> Reddit: http://programming.reddit.com/info/65uh7/comments/
>>>
>>> Digg: http://digg.com/programming/D_programming_language_pumps_up_programmer_productivity 
>>>
>>
>> Note in the comments how someone (not me I promise!) latches on to the specious arguments in the FAQ for why strings need to be included as a language feature.  Those dubious arguments should be removed.  A better argument is that it allows compile-time string manipulation.
> 
> i'm not argumenting against that, but i think it's rather impressive, that the mere inclusion of std::string and std::vector bloats a single c++ file to >480kb after preprocessing. considering the simple and fundamental nature of these things, that is already bad enough for me to want built-in dynamic arrays and strings.

That's a fine argument too.  But just saying "it's 4000 lines of code therefore it must be buggy" is weak, considering the amount of testing std::string and std::vector get and the amount of resources poured into providing STL implementations.  I'd be much more likely to believe 100 lines of D compiler source code is buggy than 4000 lines of a mainstream STL, simply because the STL has had *orders of magnitude* more use than DMD.

--bb

Bill Baxter wrote:
> Jascha Wetzel wrote:
>> Bill Baxter wrote:
>>> Walter Bright wrote:
>>>> Article: http://www.linux.com/feature/124320
>>>>
>>>> Reddit: http://programming.reddit.com/info/65uh7/comments/
>>>>
>>>> Digg: http://digg.com/programming/D_programming_language_pumps_up_programmer_productivity
>>>>
>>>
>>> Note in the comments how someone (not me I promise!) latches on to the specious arguments in the FAQ for why strings need to be included as a language feature.  Those dubious arguments should be removed.  A better argument is that it allows compile-time string manipulation.
>>
>> i'm not argumenting against that, but i think it's rather impressive, that the mere inclusion of std::string and std::vector bloats a single c++ file to >480kb after preprocessing. considering the simple and fundamental nature of these things, that is already bad enough for me to want built-in dynamic arrays and strings.
> 
> That's a fine argument too.  But just saying "it's 4000 lines of code therefore it must be buggy" is weak, considering the amount of testing std::string and std::vector get and the amount of resources poured into providing STL implementations.  I'd be much more likely to believe 100 lines of D compiler source code is buggy than 4000 lines of a mainstream STL, simply because the STL has had *orders of magnitude* more use than DMD.

std::string and std::vector aren't terribly complex to implement either.
 In my experience, the only real sticking point in implementing STL
containers is having to use STL allocators, which makes the code a bit
more complex/weird than it would be otherwise.  But this is really only
an issue once, since the same technique applies to all containers.

That said, 480k is a pretty big deal for something so fundamental.  The entire D runtime occupies around 70k.


Sean

Sean Kelly wrote:
> That said, 480k is a pretty big deal for something so fundamental.  The
> entire D runtime occupies around 70k.

i was exaggerating, it's only 468k ;)

-----bloat.cc------
#include <string>
#include <vector>

int main()
{
}
-------------------

g++ -E bloat.cc -o bloat_pre.cc
ls -l
-rw-r--r--  1 jascha jascha     52 2008-01-19 18:09 bloat.cc
-rw-r--r--  1 jascha jascha 479498 2008-01-19 18:09 bloat_pre.cc

Jascha Wetzel wrote:
> Sean Kelly wrote:
>> That said, 480k is a pretty big deal for something so fundamental.  The entire D runtime occupies around 70k.
> 
> i was exaggerating, it's only 468k ;)
> 
> -----bloat.cc------
> #include <string>
> #include <vector>
> 
> int main()
> {
> }
> -------------------
> 
> g++ -E bloat.cc -o bloat_pre.cc
> ls -l
> -rw-r--r--  1 jascha jascha     52 2008-01-19 18:09 bloat.cc
> -rw-r--r--  1 jascha jascha 479498 2008-01-19 18:09 bloat_pre.cc

	And using uSTL? http://ustl.sourceforge.net/

		Jerome
-- 
+------------------------- Jerome M. BERGER ---------------------+ |    mailto:jeberger@free.fr      | ICQ:    238062172            | |    http://jeberger.free.fr/     | Jabber: jeberger@jabber.fr   | +---------------------------------+------------------------------+