I never ever (I think) did something provocative, something to finally see:

- who in the community WANTS D language to succeed?

- who are just these funny “people” let’s call th this, that are I don’t know “just hang around”

Because shame is a weapon much like fear (of death esp), pride can be used as weapon but ehm better shame the bastard...

And so on.

So - until we all understand that these donations are not because we are begging fir money.

I will send ~ 10$ each day _specifically_ to see who WANTS D TO SUCCED and WILL NOT BE SHAMED LIKE THAT FOR ONCE!

It is because it’s (soon) your last chance to invest into the Future.

P.S. I mean what you think the future of native code is??? Rust? Crystal?? Nim???

On Friday, 29 June 2018 at 07:03:52 UTC, Dmitry Olshansky wrote:
> I never ever (I think) did something provocative, something to finally see:
>
> - who in the community WANTS D language to succeed?
>
> - who are just these funny “people” let’s call th this, that are I don’t know “just hang around”
>
> Because shame is a weapon much like fear (of death esp)


And because I (of aaall people at least here, maybe I just don’t see others!) have no shame!

I will roll on. You like the daily rant?
Come get it! I have all the fucking bikering over say the merits(!) of say rstrip vs stripRight, right here - come take some, it’s fresh! Free even!

Like how will these attempt to stop me look like? Pathetic, most likely but they will and we all we will have the good guys ( Atilla, this for you, man I swear WE will have fun and forums will be cool again)...

So this C# pal comes and says like I offered him a drink with sandwich (for free!!) and he doesn’t like it - vegetarian(!).

Okay:

- I want async and await and async function and ALL of thay stuff from C# in D language

( I wait for a few moments to “compose” myself!)

- So you want D to succeed (I mean C# is there and you seem to know it?)

- Then how much effort (at least in theory, nit to mention that is an awful approach and we have Fibers, vibed, mecca and maybe soon Photon will roll!) does it take?!

- Please let’s start with symbolic gesture, with plans like that a 1000$ is just a sign of goodwill right?

....

> P.S. I mean what you think the future of native code is??? Rust? Crystal?? Nim???

On Friday, 29 June 2018 at 07:03:52 UTC, Dmitry Olshansky wrote:
> I never ever (I think) did something provocative, something to finally see:
>
> - who in the community WANTS D language to succeed?
>
> - who are just these funny “people” let’s call th this, that are I don’t know “just hang around”
>
> Because shame is a weapon much like fear (of death esp), pride can be used as weapon but ehm better shame the bastard...
>
> And so on.
>
> So - until we all understand that these donations are not because we are begging fir money.
>
> I will send ~ 10$ each day _specifically_ to see who WANTS D TO SUCCED and WILL NOT BE SHAMED LIKE THAT FOR ONCE!
>
> It is because it’s (soon) your last chance to invest into the Future.
>
> P.S. I mean what you think the future of native code is??? Rust? Crystal?? Nim???

I know most people here don't agree with me, but I think you're fighting an already lost battle ;)

As you know, I'm convinced that D could be marketed as the perfect language to develop native web servers and mobile applications, and have its core libraries somewhat extended in thqg direction, like Go and Crystal which allow "plug'n'play" web server development for instance, but obviously the D "leadership" remains convinced that D must be sold as the best alternative to C++.

Personally I'm a complete D fan because it is SOOO MUCH better than JavaScript/Python/Perl/etc for file processing...

For engine and game development I'm still using C++, despite I prefer D, and believe me this won't change for a while.

Game development is a very special use case, but personally I don't think that many of those who use C++ for close-to-the-metal development should be that much interested in switching to D, because most of its standard libraries depend on the presence of a GC...

And to answer your question, IMHO the future of native code probably remains C++ (not Rust) for system programming, and (unfortunately) Go for web development (great ecosystem, db drivers, often faster than Java, C#, Dart, etc) despite it lacks several core feature many developers need (generics, etc).

Once Crystal integrates parallelism (at 1.0), it should become de facto one of the best alternative to Go, Java, C#, etc, because it's actually "Go-made-right". For instance it's genericity system works well, and its type inference system natively support union types.

Nim disqualifies itself because contrarily to D and C# for instance, it doesn't manage mutual dependencies automatically for you, which is a pity.

And Rust, despite it has perfect C/C++-like performance and doens't need a GC, its borrow checker made it a hell to use at first, as unfortunately Rust hasn't integrated strong/weak references as a core feature of the language (Rc/Weak are templates, RefCell is needed for mutability, etc), despite that's actually what many C++ developers use today for resource management, and would be more than enough for them to get their job done once they switch to Rust...

On Friday, 29 June 2018 at 07:03:52 UTC, Dmitry Olshansky wrote:
> I never ever (I think) did something provocative, something to finally see:
>
> - who in the community WANTS D language to succeed?
>
> - who are just these funny “people” let’s call th this, that are I don’t know “just hang around”
>
> Because shame is a weapon much like fear (of death esp), pride can be used as weapon but ehm better shame the bastard...
>
> And so on.
>
> So - until we all understand that these donations are not because we are begging fir money.
>
> I will send ~ 10$ each day _specifically_ to see who WANTS D TO SUCCED and WILL NOT BE SHAMED LIKE THAT FOR ONCE!
>
> It is because it’s (soon) your last chance to invest into the Future.
>
> P.S. I mean what you think the future of native code is??? Rust? Crystal?? Nim???

And btw, if D could have its standard libraries and language features (strings, arrays, maps, slices, etc) also NATIVELY work without GC (= NATIVE weak/strong reference counting), IMHO D could perfectly be the future of native code, as it could become a better alternative to both C++, Rust, Go, etc

On Friday, 29 June 2018 at 08:43:34 UTC, Ecstatic Coder wrote:
> On Friday, 29 June 2018 at 07:03:52 UTC, Dmitry Olshansky wrote:>
> For engine and game development I'm still using C++, despite I prefer D, and believe me this won't change for a while.
>
> Game development is a very special use case, but personally I don't think that many of those who use C++ for close-to-the-metal development should be that much interested in switching to D, because most of its standard libraries depend on the presence of a GC...

I switched form C++ to D on game development one year ago.
I am developing CrystalEngine in D, it's on DUB.
The performance with GC it's good, for now.
Anyway, I try to avoid GC as much as possible.
The main issue for me in game development with D is the cross-compilation (e.g. iOS, Windows Universal Platform..).
But also, with (static if/foreach, mixin) and other CTFE stuff, I can optimize the code much better than with c++ poor CTFE and preprocessor.

> Anyway, I try to avoid GC as much as possible.
> The main issue for me in game development with D is the cross-compilation (e.g. iOS, Windows Universal Platform..).

+1

That's why I don't think C++ will be soon replaced by Rust, D, etc

Maybe in a few years, but obviously not right now...

On Friday, 29 June 2018 at 08:43:34 UTC, Ecstatic Coder wrote:
> As you know, I'm convinced that D could be marketed as the perfect language to develop native web servers and mobile applications, and have its core libraries somewhat extended in thqg direction, like Go and Crystal which allow "plug'n'play" web server development for instance

D allows for plug n' play web server development too.

On Friday, 29 June 2018 at 07:03:52 UTC, Dmitry Olshansky wrote:
> [snip]

I'm a little confused. You're going to send $10 a day to D Foundation because you're upset about people complaining about D?

I have my donation come through my paycheck. Company matches up to a certain amount a year. It's like I don't even see it.

On Friday, 29 June 2018 at 10:06:12 UTC, bauss wrote:
> On Friday, 29 June 2018 at 08:43:34 UTC, Ecstatic Coder wrote:
>> As you know, I'm convinced that D could be marketed as the perfect language to develop native web servers and mobile applications, and have its core libraries somewhat extended in thqg direction, like Go and Crystal which allow "plug'n'play" web server development for instance
>
> D allows for plug n' play web server development too.

Then this should be more advertised...

For instance :

https://crystal-lang.org/

The FIRST paragraph of text of Crystal's web page is :

"Syntax

Crystal’s syntax is heavily inspired by Ruby’s, so it feels natural to read and easy to write, and has the added benefit of a lower learning curve for experienced Ruby devs.

# A very basic HTTP server
require "http/server"

server = HTTP::Server.new do |context|
  context.response.content_type = "text/plain"
  context.response.print "Hello world, got #{context.request.path}!"
end

puts "Listening on http://127.0.0.1:8080"
server.listen(8080)
"

So the FIRST thing you learn about Crystal is that the standard library already gives you all you need to program a simple "hello world" web server.

The Go standard library is also known to provide the same building blocks :

package main

import (
	"fmt"
	"net/http"
)

func main() {
	http.HandleFunc("/", func(w http.ResponseWriter, r *http.Request) {
		fmt.Fprintf(w, "Hello, you've requested: %s\n", r.URL.Path)
	})

	http.ListenAndServe(":80", nil)
}

Both are batteries-included for web development. That's why many developers don't feel the need to use thirdparty frameworks to implement their microservices...

So if it's also the case for D, then sorry for my mistake...

On Friday, 29 June 2018 at 12:32:46 UTC, Ecstatic Coder wrote:
> On Friday, 29 June 2018 at 10:06:12 UTC, bauss wrote:
>> On Friday, 29 June 2018 at 08:43:34 UTC, Ecstatic Coder wrote:
>>> As you know, I'm convinced that D could be marketed as the perfect language to develop native web servers and mobile applications, and have its core libraries somewhat extended in thqg direction, like Go and Crystal which allow "plug'n'play" web server development for instance
>>
>> D allows for plug n' play web server development too.
>
> Then this should be more advertised...
>
> For instance :

> https://crystal-lang.org/
>
> The FIRST paragraph of text of Crystal's web page is :
>
> "Syntax
>
> Crystal’s syntax is heavily inspired by Ruby’s, so it feels natural to read and easy to write, and has the added benefit of a lower learning curve for experienced Ruby devs.
>
> # A very basic HTTP server
> require "http/server"
>
> server = HTTP::Server.new do |context|
>   context.response.content_type = "text/plain"
>   context.response.print "Hello world, got #{context.request.path}!"
> end
>
> puts "Listening on http://127.0.0.1:8080"
> server.listen(8080)
> "
>
> So the FIRST thing you learn about Crystal is that the standard library already gives you all you need to program a simple "hello world" web server.
>
> The Go standard library is also known to provide the same building blocks :
>
> package main
>
> import (
> 	"fmt"
> 	"net/http"
> )
>
> func main() {
> 	http.HandleFunc("/", func(w http.ResponseWriter, r *http.Request) {
> 		fmt.Fprintf(w, "Hello, you've requested: %s\n", r.URL.Path)
> 	})
>
> 	http.ListenAndServe(":80", nil)
> }
>
> Both are batteries-included for web development. That's why many developers don't feel the need to use thirdparty frameworks to implement their microservices...
>
> So if it's also the case for D, then sorry for my mistake...

Sorry. My misunderstanding.

I thought you meant there were no frameworks that could be used as plug n play for web development.

For this to ever happen std.socket needs to be deprecated already and rewritten so D can have a standard http module.

I don't really see that happening though.

However I agree with the third party libraries to an extended, but it's not really an issue. All developers will end up with third party dependencies in one way or another, especially for web development. Like you'll most likely end up with some kind of JavaScript library, some sass/less compiler etc.

If you're a web developer with no dependencies then youre either reinventing the wheel (could cause trouble in the long run, if your implementations aren't correct.) Or your application just isn't more than a hobby project.

Most enterprise projects will have dependencies outside standard libraries and that is true for ex. Go too.

You also have to remember that D has a very different philosophy.