Ary Borenszweig wrote:
> Clay Smith wrote:
>> Chris R. Miller wrote:
>>> A very good friend of mine and an absolutely fantastic programmer once told me some great advice: stop making stupid UML diagrams and write code!
>>>
>>
>> Sorry, but I have to say that you are not getting great advice. The design stage is the most important stage in the life of a program. Get that wrong and you can write all the code you want, and it will all be wrong.
> 
> Agile software development? XP? :-)

Absolutist statements are /always/ wrong.

(...including that one :-))

--bb

Ty Tower wrote:

> Lars Ivar Igesund Wrote:
> 
>> I suppose you already made your decision, but as mentioned, a question in the forum would have given you more information on this. DDBI has moved very slowly over the last 18 months, but is being picked up again now, and will hopefully have a new release soonish. DDBI in trunk is now Tango only, but should work with DMD 1.028/29.
> 
>> I won't critize your company for making the choice it did, as it obviosly will need to earn money, but I don't see how you can expect the community to do what you want it to do with getting involved yourself.
> 
> He has just done so?
> 
>>At the very
>> least the community needs to know what you as a potential user needs from the project, so that tasks can be prioritized. Most of D still being open source, one cannot normally expect anything to happen without contributing self at some level. Posting your summary here may or may not help, but going to the specific project will always be best. Not all in the D community follow these newsgroups regularly.
> 
> He has just told you !
>> 
>> An example of how I think a company could get involved to help D move on, is how the work I will do on DDBI is sponsored (part time) by a company that plans to use D commerically. In light of that, now may be the right time to get involved in that particular project.
>>
> 
> Give me some money and I will help you !
> 
> 
>> > I think some serious attention needs to be focused on this, rather than the minutiae of the latest cool language feature.  I have been following D for some years now, hoping it would all come together --- and I hope it does, soon --- as it feels D is being left in the dust.
>> 
>> Tools situation may have stagnated, but I'm not sure you have followed Tango too closely :)
>> 
>> --
>> Lars Ivar Igesund
>> blog at http://larsivi.net
>> DSource, #d.tango & #D: larsivi
>> Dancing the Tango
> 
> This is a typical of a lot of what like to call themselves "The D Community" They are more interested in attacking the messenger.
> 
> Torhu says as well that DBI should work with 1.029 etc etc but has he checked? Has Lars checked?  Obviously Bill checked and it didn't .

Yes, I checked, I'm the current mantainer of DDBI.

> 
>  If you aren't sure why post?
> 
> From what I have seen it is a mess but listening to people like this and DOING SOMETHING ABOUT IT would be a good start .

That is what I have been doing for quite a few years now.

> Don't start on me ! I am still here and contributing with posts wherever I see stupidity,

Contributing more stupidity?

-- 
Lars Ivar Igesund
blog at http://larsivi.net
DSource, #d.tango & #D: larsivi
Dancing the Tango

Robert Fraser wrote:

> Lars Ivar Igesund wrote:
>> Tools situation may have stagnated, but I'm not sure you have followed Tango too closely :)
> 
> The tools situation is definitely not stagnant!

Sorry Robert, strike that :) I guess it is more the tools I use that are not moving as fast as they did.

-- 
Lars Ivar Igesund
blog at http://larsivi.net
DSource, #d.tango & #D: larsivi
Dancing the Tango

Max Samukha Wrote:

> Ty Tower Wrote:
> 
> > This is a typical of a lot of what like to call themselves "The D Community" They are more interested in attacking the messenger.
> > 
> > Torhu says as well that DBI should work with 1.029 etc etc but has he checked? Has Lars checked?  Obviously Bill checked and it didn't .
> > 
> >  If you aren't sure why post?
> > 
> 
> I checked out the D DBI trunk about two weeks ago. It didn't build out of the box but after a number of trivial fixes it did. It's been working pretty much as expected (with MySql backend, I haven't tried it with other backends yet). There was a bug or two like fetched resultsets being freed prematurely, but the bugs were trivial to fix as well. Currently I'm building a thin ORM layer on top of DDBI and I think it is turning out to be a fast and flexible solution suitable for my purposes.



Am I the only one who thinks software build bugs, no matter how trivial, are simply unacceptable? Just because it's free doesn't mean it doesn't have to work! I shouldn't have to dig through source code just to get something to compile, let alone run properly.

Sean Reque wrote:

> Max Samukha Wrote:
> 
>> Ty Tower Wrote:
>> 
>> > This is a typical of a lot of what like to call themselves "The D Community" They are more interested in attacking the messenger.
>> > 
>> > Torhu says as well that DBI should work with 1.029 etc etc but has he checked? Has Lars checked?  Obviously Bill checked and it didn't .
>> > 
>> >  If you aren't sure why post?
>> > 
>> 
>> I checked out the D DBI trunk about two weeks ago. It didn't build out of the box but after a number of trivial fixes it did. It's been working pretty much as expected (with MySql backend, I haven't tried it with other backends yet). There was a bug or two like fetched resultsets being freed prematurely, but the bugs were trivial to fix as well. Currently I'm building a thin ORM layer on top of DDBI and I think it is turning out to be a fast and flexible solution suitable for my purposes.
> 
> 
> 
> Am I the only one who thinks software build bugs, no matter how trivial, are simply unacceptable? Just because it's free doesn't mean it doesn't have to work! I shouldn't have to dig through source code just to get something to compile, let alone run properly.

Indeed, and DDBI always compiles with the correct combination of compiler and Tango :) The perceived problem here is that DDBI haven't had a stable release for a long time (and that I hope to rectify), and so you may have to be a bit lucky to get it to compile with your setup - to compile trunk now for instance, you need Tango trunk.

-- 
Lars Ivar Igesund
blog at http://larsivi.net
DSource, #d.tango & #D: larsivi
Dancing the Tango

Lars Ivar Igesund Wrote:
> > Don't start on me ! I am still here and contributing with posts wherever I see stupidity,
> 
> Contributing more stupidity?

Now you see Lars here be your way, and your error.
Attack the messenger and ignore the message
We all fall into it from time to time but you do it regularly whenever someone says anything negative.

What happens then is no-one dare give you a message for fear of ridicule and being on your high horse you influence others with your view .
So if its OK for you to do it ,it will be acceptable for others and this permeates down to other forum members and nothing gets fixed

This is how it is with D now . You could fix it simply by a small change to  your approach and attitude. If you assume directness is rudeness you are very wrong.

Clay Smith Wrote:

> Chris R. Miller wrote:
> > Ty Tower Wrote:
> > 
> >> Lars Ivar Igesund Wrote:
> >>
> >>> I suppose you already made your decision, but as mentioned, a question in
> >>> the forum would have given you more information on this. DDBI has moved
> >>> very slowly over the last 18 months, but is being picked up again now, and
> >>> will hopefully have a new release soonish. DDBI in trunk is now Tango only,
> >>> but should work with DMD 1.028/29.
> >>> I won't critize your company for making the choice it did, as it obviosly
> >>> will need to earn money, but I don't see how you can expect the community
> >>> to do what you want it to do with getting involved yourself.
> >> He has just done so?
> > 
> > He criticized the decision, but everyone's entitled to their own opinion.
> > 
> > Ruby is probably a better choice for a product they need to make money off of.  Ruby has a bigger community, it's older, and more stable.  It has better, more mature libraries, and setting it up is far easier than it is with D.
> > 
> > In addition, he said that database support was lacking in D.  I have to second that.  DDBI is really the only viable tool that I can find, and on its dsource page it says to not use it because it's "going to change."  I can totally understand the confusion on that point.  The Tango confusion, not so much.
> > 
> > Ruby, on the other hand, is an SQL embedded language.  Doing things with databases is going to be trivially easy with Ruby.
> > 
> > Furthermore, Ruby has some excellent web-facing support with Ruby on Rails.  If they wanted to add some web-facing support to their product, they could use the exact same source code and the exact same libraries for the web application that they use for the rest of the whole mess.  Ruby can also make use of C extensions, which will doubtlessly become useful for managing - or even mangling - videos (since Ruby itself isn't all that fast in comparison).  That will also allow them to tap into an existing, impressive set of C libraries for video stuff, which they won't have to code.
> > 
> > It's probably a better choice to go with Ruby -- for **them**.
> > 
> >>>> I think some serious attention needs to be focused on this, rather than the minutiae of the latest cool language feature.  I have been following D for some years now, hoping it would all come together --- and I hope it does, soon --- as it feels D is being left in the dust.
> >>> Tools situation may have stagnated, but I'm not sure you have followed Tango too closely :)
> >>>
> 
> <snip>
> 
> > A very good friend of mine and an absolutely fantastic programmer once told me some great advice: stop making stupid UML diagrams and write code!
> > 
> 
> Sorry, but I have to say that you are not getting great advice. The design stage is the most important stage in the life of a program. Get that wrong and you can write all the code you want, and it will all be wrong.

That really depends on the problem.  If there's no existing solution, it's probably best to just sit down and write a solution and see how it goes.  If there's already an existing solution to a problem, spending some time and thought in the design phase will do you a lot of good in making a better solution.

Then again, that friend is really smart... He basically sat down and wrote a huge editor system for OS X (called Araelium Edit, if you've ever heard of it before) basically without any planning.  It still took him about three years to write, but he had zero diagrams, charts, or anything like that to share with me.  It was just code.

Often smart people forget that the rest of the world isn't quite that smart.  He might have been guilty of that when he made that statement.  Luckily, given my situation when he said it, he was right.  Trying to make something work in a real-code enviroment impelled me to leave Java.  Looking at where it's landed me, it's quite possibly the best advice I've ever been given, though your mileage may vary, of course.

> Indeed, and DDBI always compiles with the correct combination of compiler and Tango :)

Nope, ddbi does not compile with current version of Tango. You did not test at least sqlite backend. Below you can see part of SqliteDatabase.d from trunk version of DDBI:

version (Phobos) {
    private import std.string : toDString = toString, toCString = toStringz;
    debug (UnitTest) private import std.stdio;
} else {
    private import tango.stdc.stringz : toDString = fromUtf8z, toCString =
toUtf8z;
    private import tango.util.log.Log;
}

Do you see problem?: fromUtf8z and toUtf8z already do not exist in Tango.

In Sqlite backend, there is another problem - there is method:
bool execute(StatementBinder binder) but StatementBinder is not committed to
SVN.


-- 
Regards
Marcin Kuszczak (Aarti_pl)
-------------------------------------
Ask me why I believe in Jesus - http://www.zapytajmnie.com (en/pl)
Doost (port of few Boost libraries) - http://www.dsource.org/projects/doost/
-------------------------------------

> Indeed, and DDBI always compiles with the correct combination of compiler and Tango :) The perceived problem here is that DDBI haven't had a stable release for a long time (and that I hope to rectify), and so you may have to be a bit lucky to get it to compile with your setup - to compile trunk now for instance, you need Tango trunk.
> 
> -- 
> Lars Ivar Igesund
> blog at http://larsivi.net
> DSource, #d.tango & #D: larsivi
> Dancing the Tango


Sorry, I didn't mean any personal offense. I've just dealt with one too many open source projects that wouldn't even compile, either because of lack of good up-to-date documentation or just plain bugs, or both. I remember reading a forum post by an open source project owner once where the owner admitted that the build for his project had bugs and did not work. Not only so,  he openly admitted he hadn't fixed them because he didn't find that kind of work interesting, and was instead asking for volunteers to do it for him!!!!

I feel like, while it is getting better, that many open source content creators focus more on pursuing personal interests than creating something useful for other people. I have no problems with people wanting to explore personal interests. Just don't try to tease the public and get them to believe you have made something worth their time when it isn't! (Again, that's not directed to anyone in particular.)

Marcin Kuszczak wrote:

>> Indeed, and DDBI always compiles with the correct combination of compiler and Tango :)
> 
> Nope, ddbi does not compile with current version of Tango. You did not test at least sqlite backend. Below you can see part of SqliteDatabase.d from trunk version of DDBI:
> 
> version (Phobos) {
>     private import std.string : toDString = toString, toCString =
>     toStringz; debug (UnitTest) private import std.stdio;
> } else {
>     private import tango.stdc.stringz : toDString = fromUtf8z, toCString =
> toUtf8z;
>     private import tango.util.log.Log;
> }
> 
> Do you see problem?: fromUtf8z and toUtf8z already do not exist in Tango.
> 
> In Sqlite backend, there is another problem - there is method:
> bool execute(StatementBinder binder) but StatementBinder is not committed
> to SVN.
> 
> 

Oh my, that is embarrassing. I had a mix and match dev version of Tango installed, and so neither mysql nor sqlite backends compiled with a recent, clean Tango. I have fixed mysql for now, whereas there is more work in line to get the sqlite backend working. The rest of the backends I'm not even likely to test very soon (maybe pgsql), and should be considered unsupported.

-- 
Lars Ivar Igesund
blog at http://larsivi.net
DSource, #d.tango & #D: larsivi
Dancing the Tango