On Monday, 30 October 2017 at 13:32:23 UTC, Joakim wrote:

>
> There will always be a few Windows cockroaches that survive the mobile nuclear blast, but we're talking about the majority who won't.
>

Why do predictions about the future matter when at the present Windows dominates the desktop and is also strong in the server space? I have seen conflicting reports about what OS is bigger in the server market, but Windows is substantial and the more frequent winner.

https://community.spiceworks.com/networking/articles/2462-server-virtualization-and-os-trends

https://www.1and1.com/digitalguide/server/know-how/linux-vs-windows-the-big-server-check/

And if desktop OSes were going to go away, the MacOS would go before Windows.

On Tuesday, 31 October 2017 at 21:21:46 UTC, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:
> But my point is that the kind of typical hobby stuff and a huge (HUGE) subset of other work too functions perfectly well with 32 bit, yes, even with optlink. You can do web applications, desktop applications, games, all kinds of things with the out-of-the-box dmd install and nobody will be the wiser of 32 vs 64 bit unless someone makes a specific stink over it.

My 'hobby stuff' involves pushing things to their limit..and beyond... ;-)

Just now, on my 24GB mem desktop, I could malloc 21GB of contiguous memory!

If I use -m32, that reduces to 1GB.

Anyway...when you going to give us another surmon?

Was Andrei the last angel to come visit Walter?

On Wednesday, 1 November 2017 at 01:48:13 UTC, codephantom wrote:
> Anyway...when you going to give us another surmon?

This is WAY off topic so i'ma just leave it at this post (you can email me if you want to go further) but I kinda doubt I'll go to a DConf in Berlin. It is a pain for me. Maybe I'll do it... but don't count on it.

> Was Andrei the last angel to come visit Walter?

No, of course not! Scott Meyers also had to come down to restore the C++hood keys.

On Monday, 30 October 2017 at 13:32:23 UTC, Joakim wrote:
> I don't know how intense your data analysis is, but I replaced a Win7 ultrabook that had a dual-core i5 and 4 GBs of RAM with an Android tablet that has a quad-core ARMv7 and 3 GBs of RAM as my daily driver a couple years ago, without skipping a beat.
>  I built large mixed C++/D codebases on my ultrabook, now I do that on my Android/ARM tablet, which has a slightly weaker chip than my smartphone.
>

hahhaa hahhaa... I can't stop laughing...hahaaa hahaaaaa. 3GB of ram, 4GB of ram..hahhaa..hahhha.... I'm starting to feel ill too...hahha...hahha.....

ok. I'm back...to normal now...

Can your tablet run FreeBSD as host, and run multiple vm's at the same time too?

Can you put multiple SSD RAID into your tablet?

Can you upgrade its ram to 32GB?

Can you upgrade its video card to 6GB?

Can you overclock its cpu to 4GHz?

Can you even replace its cpu?

Desktops rule!!!!  Tablets are only good for reading pdf's while in bed ;-)

On Tuesday, October 31, 2017 06:33:02 Dmitry Olshansky via Digitalmars-d wrote:
> On Tuesday, 31 October 2017 at 01:25:31 UTC, Adam D Ruppe wrote:
> > A 32 bit program can do most the same stuff.
>
> Client applications probably do not care much. Servers and cluster software can use more RAM and take advantage of huge address space in many interesting ways.

Wait, people run Windows on servers? No one could be that crazy, could they? ;)

I think that Adam has a valid point that there _are_ plenty of applications that can function just fine as 32-bit, and given how much easier it is to build for 32-bit on Windows with D, if you don't need to interact with any 3rd party libraries built with MS' compiler, then simply using the default 32-bit dmd stuff on Windows could be just fine.

But the fact remains that plenty of applications need 64-bit or would benefit from 64-bit, and plenty of applications need access to COFF libraries, and in those cases, you can't do things the easy way on Windows.

So, for some stuff, having dmd as it is now with 32-bit works just fine, but for other stuff, it doesn't cut it at all. It really depends on what you're trying to do. Either way, it's unfortunate that we have to jump through as many hoops as we do in order to interact with the default C/C++ stuff on Windows. Hopefully, we'll be able to improve that over time though - and we already have. Once upon a time, we didn't have an installer on Windows (let alone one that tried to help you with VS), and we couldn't build COFF stuff with dmd at all.

- Jonathan M Davis

On Wednesday, 1 November 2017 at 03:55:14 UTC, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
> I think that Adam has a valid point that there _are_ plenty of applications that can function just fine as 32-bit, and given how much easier it is to build for 32-bit on Windows with D, if you don't need to interact with any 3rd party libraries built with MS' compiler, then simply using the default 32-bit dmd stuff on Windows could be just fine.
>

Yes. I agree. The point was valid, and it was not a point many would have dared argued .. so good on him ;-)

But progress is needed too.. 64bit is to 32bit, was D is to C.

A new world of possibilites await....

On Wednesday, 1 November 2017 at 03:55:14 UTC, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 31, 2017 06:33:02 Dmitry Olshansky via Digitalmars-d wrote:
>> On Tuesday, 31 October 2017 at 01:25:31 UTC, Adam D Ruppe wrote:
>> > A 32 bit program can do most the same stuff.
>>
>> Client applications probably do not care much. Servers and cluster software can use more RAM and take advantage of huge address space in many interesting ways.
>
> Wait, people run Windows on servers? No one could be that crazy, could they? ;)

You are seriously underestimating Windows Server. Yeah it has gui and remote desktop, but it ticks in at what ~200 mb of ram.

Microsoft IIS is still top server on the web.

Also if you didn’t noticed in recent years MS did quite a few breakthroughs on performance e.g. user-mode scheduling and RIO sockets.


>
> I think that Adam has a valid point that there _are_ plenty of applications that can function just fine as 32-bit, and given how much easier it is to build for 32-bit on Windows with D, if you don't need to interact with any 3rd party libraries built with MS' compiler, then simply using the default 32-bit dmd stuff on Windows could be just fine.

That is ok.

>
> But the fact remains that plenty of applications need 64-bit or would benefit from 64-bit, and plenty of applications need access to COFF libraries, and in those cases, you can't do things the easy way on Windows.

Like dmd itself!

On Tuesday, 31 October 2017 at 21:21:46 UTC, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:
> On Tuesday, 31 October 2017 at 06:33:02 UTC, Dmitry Olshansky wrote:
>> I can live without hot water in my house, would I?
>
> So sad but true... my water heater went down today :(

Ouch, that analogy got out of hand quick)

> Basement flooded and it is blinking out a bad vapor sensor error code.

Sorry to hear that.

>
>> Client applications probably do not care much. Servers and cluster software can use more RAM and take advantage of huge address space in many interesting ways.
>
> Yeah, I know. And if you're writing that kind of software, installing Visual Studio isn't a big deal.
>
> But my point is that the kind of typical hobby stuff and a huge (HUGE) subset of other work too functions perfectly well with 32 bit, yes, even with optlink. You can do web applications, desktop applications, games, all kinds of things with the out-of-the-box dmd install and nobody will be the wiser of 32 vs 64 bit unless someone makes a specific stink over it.

Sure. Even Chrome snd its ilk were 32-bit for super long time. I think 64-bit consumed even more ram and that postponed the switch :)

On Wednesday, November 01, 2017 05:36:21 Dmitry Olshansky via Digitalmars-d wrote:
> On Wednesday, 1 November 2017 at 03:55:14 UTC, Jonathan M Davis
> > But the fact remains that plenty of applications need 64-bit or would benefit from 64-bit, and plenty of applications need access to COFF libraries, and in those cases, you can't do things the easy way on Windows.
>
> Like dmd itself!

Yeah, given the situation with CTFE, it's kind of atrocious that we don't distribute dmd as a 64-bit binary at least as an option.

- Jonathan M Davis

On Wednesday, 1 November 2017 at 00:16:19 UTC, Mengu wrote:
> On Monday, 30 October 2017 at 13:32:23 UTC, Joakim wrote:
>>
>> I don't know how intense your data analysis is, but I replaced a Win7 ultrabook that had a dual-core i5 and 4 GBs of RAM with an Android tablet that has a quad-core ARMv7 and 3 GBs of RAM as my daily driver a couple years ago, without skipping a beat.
>>  I built large mixed C++/D codebases on my ultrabook, now I do that on my Android/ARM tablet, which has a slightly weaker chip than my smartphone.
>>
>
> how do you program on your tablet? what are your tools? what is your setup? i also believe laptops are here to go.

I use the Termux app that I mentioned before, along with a Rapoo bluetooth keyboard and a cheap, foldable stand to prop up my tablet:

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.termux&hl=en

`apt install clang ldc vim git gdb cmake ninja python` in Termux and I'm ready to go (well, not quite, as I also need some library packages depending on the project, but you get the idea).  You can also install Termux on a Chromebook laptop that runs Android apps:

https://mobile.twitter.com/rmloveland/status/908529214357458946
https://mobile.twitter.com/termux

It's far from an IDE, but I never used those before anyway.  I want to try out something like that Sentio laptop shell one day, as the bigger 11.6" screen does make sense for me.  So far, I've been fine with my 8.4" tablet screen though.

On Wednesday, 1 November 2017 at 00:30:21 UTC, Tony wrote:
> On Monday, 30 October 2017 at 13:32:23 UTC, Joakim wrote:
>
>>
>> There will always be a few Windows cockroaches that survive the mobile nuclear blast, but we're talking about the majority who won't.
>>
>
> Why do predictions about the future matter when at the present Windows dominates the desktop and is also strong in the server space?

Because that desktop market matters much less than it did before, see the current mobile dominance, yet the D core team still focuses only on that dying x86 market.  As for the future, why spend time getting D great Windows IDE support if you don't think Windows has much of a future?

> I have seen conflicting reports about what OS is bigger in the server market, but Windows is substantial and the more frequent winner.
>
> https://community.spiceworks.com/networking/articles/2462-server-virtualization-and-os-trends
>
> https://www.1and1.com/digitalguide/server/know-how/linux-vs-windows-the-big-server-check/

I have never seen any report that Windows is "bigger in the server market."  Last month's Netcraft survey notes,

"which underlying operating systems are used by the world's web facing computers?

By far the most commonly used operating system is Linux, which runs on more than two-thirds of all web-facing computers. This month alone, the number of Linux computers increased by more than 91,000; and again, this strong growth can largely be attributed to cloud hosting providers, where Linux-based instances are typically the cheapest and most commonly available."
https://news.netcraft.com/archives/2017/09/11/september-2017-web-server-survey.html

Your first link is actually a bad sign for Windows, as it's likely just because companies are trying to save money by having their employees run Windows apps off a virtualized Windows Server, rather than buying a ton more Windows PCs.  Meanwhile, your second link sees "Linux maintaining a noticeable lead" in the web-hosting market.

> And if desktop OSes were going to go away, the MacOS would go before Windows.

Oh, Apple wants that to happen, one less legacy OS to support, which is why all the Mac-heads are crying, because macOS doesn't get much attention nowadays.  Do you know the last time Apple released a standalone desktop computer?  2014, when they last updated the Mac Mini.  They haven't updated the Mac Pro since 2013.

They see the writing on the wall, which is why they're lengthening their release cycles for such legacy products.

On Wednesday, 1 November 2017 at 01:59:19 UTC, codephantom wrote:
> On Monday, 30 October 2017 at 13:32:23 UTC, Joakim wrote:
>> I don't know how intense your data analysis is, but I replaced a Win7 ultrabook that had a dual-core i5 and 4 GBs of RAM with an Android tablet that has a quad-core ARMv7 and 3 GBs of RAM as my daily driver a couple years ago, without skipping a beat.
>>  I built large mixed C++/D codebases on my ultrabook, now I do that on my Android/ARM tablet, which has a slightly weaker chip than my smartphone.
>>
>
> hahhaa hahhaa... I can't stop laughing...hahaaa hahaaaaa. 3GB of ram, 4GB of ram..hahhaa..hahhha.... I'm starting to feel ill too...hahha...hahha.....
>
> ok. I'm back...to normal now...
>
> Can your tablet run FreeBSD as host, and run multiple vm's at the same time too?
>
> Can you put multiple SSD RAID into your tablet?
>
> Can you upgrade its ram to 32GB?
>
> Can you upgrade its video card to 6GB?
>
> Can you overclock its cpu to 4GHz?
>
> Can you even replace its cpu?
>
> Desktops rule!!!!  Tablets are only good for reading pdf's while in bed ;-)

You're right, tablets can't do most of those things, though if you're fine just running FreeBSD in Qemu, that's coming:

https://github.com/termux/termux-packages/pull/1329

If your point is that the 1% of PC users who do such things will stick with PCs and the remaining 99% will switch to mobile, I agree with you. :)