Am Thu, 14 Feb 2013 02:00:20 -0800
schrieb Walter Bright <newshound2@digitalmars.com>:

> The trouble is, where do you stop adding trivia? How about this one:
> 
>     T addThree(T t) { return t + 3; }
> 
> ?

I thought that's _why_ we have ++ and --.

-- 
Marco

On 2/14/13 4:49 PM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
> On 2013-02-14 21:33, Dmitry Olshansky wrote:
>
>> Then there are these ways forward IMHO:
>> a) Admit that tango for D2 exists (easy) and bundle it with DMD (the
>> hard/not likely/inconvenient part)
>
> Yeah, that would be the easy and IMHO the best solution.

We can't do that for the reasons put forward in my previous post.

>> b) Agree that we need to port it and issue a call to port/re-write
>> required facilities for Orbit on top of phobos/curl. This means pulls
>> against Orbit repo not phobos BTW.
>> c) Forget about Orbit and try something else, like Dub?
>>
>> About serialization (that seems the biggest roadblock) - what exactly
>> does Orbit need it for? Maybe it can be decoupled and/or easily
>> re-written by hand until Orange or similar stuff gets into Phobos.
>
> It probably can. But I already had a working serializer and it's easy to
> just to "serialize(data)" instead of doing it manually.
>
> It uses the serializer for saving an index to disk.
>
>> Regardless I think reducing dependencies is the important for inclusion
>> of any new component into the "D core".
>
> In general I think that the D community should embrace all
> developers/contributors and existing libraries. It cannot afford to
> loose contributions for petty things like this.

Sure, as long as the admittance barrier stays high. One the worst things we've done was to allow contributions to the standard library without due review.


Andrei

On 2/15/13 2:50 AM, sclytrack wrote:
> When is D going to officially release with official third party
> libraries? Like synchronized with the release of dmd and bundled
> together in a huge (as large as possible) compressed file. Like
> Derelict, Gtkd, Qtd, Vibe, Apache Thrift. I mean not included in phobos
> but included in the release.

I think the whole point of having a package manager was to eliminate this necessity.

Andrei

On 2/15/13 3:03 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
> On 2013-02-14 23:45, Michel Fortin wrote:
>
>> I'm not sure why you don't want to continue using Tango. It's no longer
>> incompatible with Phobos I think.
>
> I do want. Trust me, you have no idea how much I want to continue use
> it. But nobody else wants to use it. Tango is basically officially banned.

This statement is inappropriate. It is factually false, 100% political, and flame-baiting. Also I have zero sympathy for posturing as a victim.

Andrei

On 2/15/13 3:21 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
> On 2013-02-15 03:06, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
>
>> Anyone is free to use Tango in their own apps, just like they're free
>> to use
>> any 3rd party library. The problem is that Andrei doesn't want
>> anything to be
>> "official" unless it only depends on official stuff (I don't know how
>> Walter feels
>> about that). So, if Orbit is to be D's official package manager (and
>> presumably
>> be in the D-Programming-Language group on github), it can't depend on any
>> libraries other than D's standard library and its own internal libraries.
>
> Phobos depends on two external libraries, curl and libz. Probably only
> half of what's included in the DMD distribution is written in D.

We have personally contacted the author of curl and the maintainer of libz to make sure there are no licensing or other issues with bundling their code with the D distribution.

Andrei

On 2/15/13 3:29 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
> On 2013-02-15 07:29, Dmitry Olshansky wrote:
>
>> It could then the only roadblock is dependency on Tango.
>> The only problem I had with serialization is that it's like using huge
>> module to do the "dump this struct in JSON" kind of thing that's doable
>> in 20-30 lines.
>
> It's not huge. I already had the serialization library available. Not
> using it would be stupid.
>
> Having 30k+ lines of code just to get the time _is_ huge.
>
>> In the option b Anyway the comment about porting from Tango still
>> applies.
>
> Just because you guys are too stubborn to include it in the distribution.

I think this is an unfair characterization.

My understanding of your position is as follows. You have code that's working just fine. It uses this and that library here and there - more or less intensively, but that's the way it always is with libraries. Since it's there and is working, you'd want to take the path of least resistance to including it in the standard distribution.

That's an understandable position to be having. It also will not lead to the inclusion of your code as part of the standard distribution for simple and objective reasons: licensing and overlapping functionality. I understand this can be frustrating, but it should give no reason to adopt posturing and attribute fault without reason.


Andrei

On 2/15/13 4:25 AM, Dicebot wrote:
> On Friday, 15 February 2013 at 08:48:56 UTC, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
>> On 2013-02-14 23:15, Dicebot wrote:
>>
>>> Well, I am one of those who does not like Tango dependencies. If
>>> something important is missing in standard option module, it
>>> needs to be added and I I'll gladly volunteer for that. But
>>> adding Tango stuff to Phobos as is - big no-no for me.
>>
>> Rewriting a large part of existing, good and working code just because
>> of some political issue (or what it is) is a big, bit no-no for _me_.
>>
>> So I guess we can drop this discussion now. It's only running in
>> circles now.
>
> And it is exactly why I offered help in rewriting some of those, as
> someone more interested in improving Phobos. If all this discussion is
> only about convincing to get some parts of Tango into official
> distribution as-is - I doubt it will be going anywhere and dropping is
> the right thing.
>
> Also it is not exactly a political issue. Tango style and design is
> considerably different from Phobos and mixing so different stuff in one
> distribution is the road to PHP hell. Much worse than any
> reimplementation (more like "refactoring" in practice) efforts. Just my
> 5 cents.

Dicebot, if Jacob allows you to copy his design with a clean-room implementation, I think this is a great way going forward.

Andrei

On 2013-02-15 14:53, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:

> We have personally contacted the author of curl and the maintainer of
> libz to make sure there are no licensing or other issues with bundling
> their code with the D distribution.

There's no issue in bundling BSD licensed code. That's the whole idea of open and free software. To be able to freely distribute the code.

-- 
/Jacob Carlborg

On Fri, 15 Feb 2013 04:17:32 -0500, Dicebot <m.strashun@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thursday, 14 February 2013 at 22:37:31 UTC, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:
>> I don't see why dmd distribution needs to include the source for all the tools it uses.  I frequently never touch the source of dmd distribution, I just use the compiled binaries.
>
> Guess why it is close to impossible to get DMD into some Linux distro repositories. If source for official tools won't be available, then gdc and ldc will become rather screwed, too. Not an option.

The issue is not that the source is unavailable, the issue is that the tool requires libraries that Walter does not want to include.

-Steve

On Fri, 15 Feb 2013 03:02:09 -0500, Jacob Carlborg <doob@me.com> wrote:

> On 2013-02-14 23:37, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:
>
>> No.  Clearly using tango xml will not fly.
>>
>> We need a new xml library.  For many reasons, besides this tool.
>>
>> I also think serialization is something we should have in phobos,
>> regardless of Orbit's requirements.
>
> I've tried that, nobody was interested.

That is an overstatement.  I'm pretty sure people are interested in having serialization in Phobos.

>
>> std.process should be remedied soon (it's nearing review).
>>
>> The others, I'm not sure.
>>
>> What about this as a possible ongoing solution:
>>
>> Step 1. Include orbit in BINARY form on the distribution, keep it in its
>> own project wherever it lives now.  Dogfood be damned...
>
> It's _is_ written in D. I just chose to use libraries that exists and works. BTW, probably around half of what's included in the DMD distribution is not written in D at all.

By dogfood I mean, written against phobos.

-Steve