On Mon, 01 Apr 2013 11:50:22 -0400
Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail@erdani.org> wrote:

> On 4/1/13 11:21 AM, Denis Shelomovskij wrote:
> > 01.04.2013 0:02, monarch_dodra пишет:
> >> This is a two part post.
> >>
> >> The reason I'm worried about this bug is that the only condition that seems to trigger it passing an object that has a destructor. I find this is very bothersome, because it can happen with perfectly safe code, and its "observable condition" is perfectly undefined. Finally, it only appears in -O, biting you in the ass in the worst possible moment.
> >
> > Nothing personal, I do respect you, but
> >
> > Bitch please!
> [snip]
> 
> Denis, the above (as well as most of the message that follows) is entirely inappropriate. It's also compounded by your antics on github, where your contributions are marred by a tendency to bully other contributors and to convert most every disagreement into strife. I have repeatedly asked you kindly to correct that behavior to no effect.
> 
> Remember, nobody's holding a gun to your head; the door is always open for entering as well as leaving. It is entirely understandable if you find D unfit for whatever you do, or if its development process is not to your satisfaction. But this ongoing attitude of playing the victim, interpreting the team's shortcomings as incompetence doubled by malice, and picking fights left and right, is not helping you or anybody.
> 
> I compel you again to revise your attitude toward the people you work and interact with in the forum and on github. If that does not happen, I will propose to the core team that your github account is banned from our project. Sorry it had to come to this.
> 

Geez. It just sounded like a reasonable expression of frustration to me. *I've* said shit on here that was *far* less level-headed. More than once.

But then, I never said anything implying an inability to use D
reliably. So I can't help wondering if there's some PR-motivated bias
here. Well, ok, I *do* realize there probably isn't, but when you
respond with the threat of a ban to a fairly reasonable post about
frustrations from having major trouble with the language, then
first of all, that overreacting, but worse: people can easily
misconstrue that as an attempt to sweep real problems things under the
rug. I know nobody's trying to do that, but we definitely don't want
people thinking we are. And that definitely makes it look like we are.

01.04.2013 20:19, Nick Sabalausky пишет:
> On Mon, 01 Apr 2013 11:50:22 -0400
> Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail@erdani.org> wrote:
>
>> On 4/1/13 11:21 AM, Denis Shelomovskij wrote:
>>> 01.04.2013 0:02, monarch_dodra пишет:
>>>> This is a two part post.
>>>>
>>>> The reason I'm worried about this bug is that the only condition
>>>> that seems to trigger it passing an object that has a destructor.
>>>> I find this is very bothersome, because it can happen with
>>>> perfectly safe code, and its "observable condition" is perfectly
>>>> undefined. Finally, it only appears in -O, biting you in the ass
>>>> in the worst possible moment.
>>>
>>> Nothing personal, I do respect you, but
>>>
>>> Bitch please!
>> [snip]
>>
>> Denis, the above (as well as most of the message that follows) is
>> entirely inappropriate. It's also compounded by your antics on
>> github, where your contributions are marred by a tendency to bully
>> other contributors and to convert most every disagreement into
>> strife. I have repeatedly asked you kindly to correct that behavior
>> to no effect.
>>
>> Remember, nobody's holding a gun to your head; the door is always
>> open for entering as well as leaving. It is entirely understandable
>> if you find D unfit for whatever you do, or if its development
>> process is not to your satisfaction. But this ongoing attitude of
>> playing the victim, interpreting the team's shortcomings as
>> incompetence doubled by malice, and picking fights left and right, is
>> not helping you or anybody.
>>
>> I compel you again to revise your attitude toward the people you work
>> and interact with in the forum and on github. If that does not
>> happen, I will propose to the core team that your github account is
>> banned from our project. Sorry it had to come to this.
>>
>
> Geez. It just sounded like a reasonable expression of frustration to me.
> *I've* said shit on here that was *far* less level-headed. More than
> once.
>
> But then, I never said anything implying an inability to use D
> reliably. So I can't help wondering if there's some PR-motivated bias
> here. Well, ok, I *do* realize there probably isn't, but when you
> respond with the threat of a ban to a fairly reasonable post about
> frustrations from having major trouble with the language, then
> first of all, that overreacting, but worse: people can easily
> misconstrue that as an attempt to sweep real problems things under the
> rug. I know nobody's trying to do that, but we definitely don't want
> people thinking we are. And that definitely makes it look like we are.

The Andrei wrote it not just because of a "fairly reasonable post" but because of my steady disrespectful behaviour (see [1] for a "light" example) in pull request discussions which does worth a ban.

[1] https://github.com/D-Programming-Language/phobos/pull/954#issuecomment-15352387


P.S.
Also, Nick, if you have time, could you show me, how do you suggest "to use D reliably" in non toy Windows projects as you "never said anything" against it?

-- 
Денис В. Шеломовский
Denis V. Shelomovskij

01.04.2013 19:50, Andrei Alexandrescu пишет:
> On 4/1/13 11:21 AM, Denis Shelomovskij wrote:
>> 01.04.2013 0:02, monarch_dodra пишет:
>> Bitch please!
> [snip]
>
> Denis, the above (as well as most of the message that follows) is
> entirely inappropriate.

Can't agree. I think the complaining is reasonable and it was written as an answer to "I found a bug, it's terrible!" to show that the situation is much worse a person thought. It is also aimed to help newbies to understand the situation if they read NG as it looks like nobody want to share this (relevant and valuable) information on main `dlang.org` site but instead a newbie can read some words about stability and conclude there is no such blocking issues in D. And it looks really like the current situation as there are lots of "Can I write for Android in D?" but no "Can I write for Windows in D?".

> It's also compounded by your antics on github,
> where your contributions are marred by a tendency to bully other
> contributors and to convert most every disagreement into strife. I have
> repeatedly asked you kindly to correct that behavior to no effect.

[For someone not informed about my disrespectful posts, read my answer to Nick]

I have never really answered to this so:

Honestly, I can't even imagine how my malicious silly posts can touch anybody except me. If someone see this what does he think? I suppose the only case is: "That is an annoying probably stupid person. He does it because he has no actual arguments so I will not read further this discussion as he is obviously incorrect." But looks like you really feel bad because of this so I will stop my stupid mean jokes.

[WARNING: the following paragraph is solely IMHO and may wrongly blame good people, remember while reading it that I'm the one who outrage more than constructive participate]
If we are telling about a respect, I have to say some of the main developers show far more strong disrespect than me (that's why I feel angry sometimes). The disrespect is in ignoring another person's arguments making that person feel like "my arguments are too stupid to even be arguably rejected". So I also kindly ask the developers to correct that behaviour. The correction is easy: in the case someone feel "there is misunderstanding" one (or better two) core developers without strong opinion on the subject are asked to attach and make unprejudiced decision (when they can of course, so the discussion may be frozen for a relatively long time which will only help everybody to rethink his opinion). In the case their opinion is like the first core developer opinion the person who is against it have to stop arguing. Probably that person may have an ability to add new arguments and ask the developers to rethink their opinion, but only after a few months.

> Remember, nobody's holding a gun to your head; the door is always open
> for entering as well as leaving. It is entirely understandable if you
> find D unfit for whatever you do, or if its development process is not
> to your satisfaction. But this ongoing attitude of playing the victim,
> interpreting the team's shortcomings as incompetence doubled by malice,
> and picking fights left and right, is not helping you or anybody.

I'm not playing the victim. I'm here long enough to see and understand D shortcomings. If I discovered something unexpected and have troubles it is my own fault.

I'm worrying about newbies who can start using the language as there is no warning on the main site about some shortcomings everybody have to be informed about. Damn, `std.stdio.File` is positioned as an official and working thing to read/write files (it is even on the main page) what can I add?

I'm also worrying about D image in the case a count of D users will grow exponentially and (I hope it will never happen but) D will drown in hate posts of frustrated users who wasn't informed about thinks they expected to be informed about.

> I compel you again to revise your attitude toward the people you work
> and interact with in the forum and on github. If that does not happen, I
> will propose to the core team that your github account is banned from
> our project. Sorry it had to come to this.

[Again, for someone not informed about my disrespectful posts, read my answer to Nick]

Of course, feel free to do it. No sarcasm here, I like D and just can't be against of pushing out somebody who cause troubles to developers.

-- 
Денис В. Шеломовский
Denis V. Shelomovskij

On 3/31/2013 1:02 PM, monarch_dodra wrote:
> The second part of this post is about a specific (OSX related) bug. I don't like
> drawing attention to it such as this, as I know we are all busy, but I think
> this one is serious enough to try to push for its investigation:
> http://d.puremagic.com/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=9720

> May I kindly
> request that those with the required knowledge to fix this bug try to
> investigate it?

The bug has been fixed. (It's awaiting review/pull.) Thanks for taking the time to report it, and sorry about the trouble it caused.

On Tuesday, 2 April 2013 at 09:05:08 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
> On 3/31/2013 1:02 PM, monarch_dodra wrote:
>> The second part of this post is about a specific (OSX related) bug. I don't like
>> drawing attention to it such as this, as I know we are all busy, but I think
>> this one is serious enough to try to push for its investigation:
>> http://d.puremagic.com/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=9720
>
>> May I kindly
>> request that those with the required knowledge to fix this bug try to
>> investigate it?
>
> The bug has been fixed. (It's awaiting review/pull.) Thanks for taking the time to report it, and sorry about the trouble it caused.

Most awesome. Thank you.

On Tue, 02 Apr 2013 11:20:26 +0400
Denis Shelomovskij <verylonglogin.reg@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> P.S.
> Also, Nick, if you have time, could you show me, how do you suggest
> "to use D reliably" in non toy Windows projects as you "never said
> anything" against it?
> 

Don't do incremental compilation. Stick to the releases instead of Git master, and if you do use Git master, make sure to 1. make clean everything (dmd, phobos, druntime) before recompiling and 2. make sure all three, dmd, phobos, druntime always match - don't update one without updating the others.

Aside from that stuff though, I haven't personally run into the problems you describe, so I really don't know.

02.04.2013 18:37, Nick Sabalausky пишет:
> On Tue, 02 Apr 2013 11:20:26 +0400
> Denis Shelomovskij <verylonglogin.reg@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> P.S.
>> Also, Nick, if you have time, could you show me, how do you suggest
>> "to use D reliably" in non toy Windows projects as you "never said
>> anything" against it?
>>
>
> Don't do incremental compilation. Stick to the releases instead of
> Git master, and if you do use Git master, make sure to 1. make clean
> everything (dmd, phobos, druntime) before recompiling and 2. make sure
> all three, dmd, phobos, druntime always match - don't update one
> without updating the others.
>
> Aside from that stuff though, I haven't personally run into the problems
> you describe, so I really don't know.
>

You are talking about different thing here. I mean known old bugs which may break every program's linking because of every small code change as I described and it isn't connected with any dmd/phobos/druntime version.

A also noted that it was triggered on both my projects to highlight the failures are not seldom (and Andrei though I was playing the victim because of that) and I don't understand how they can be ignored for such a long time as I don't see any other blockers in the language. The only other bad thing is a high probability of wrong-code when using contracts or closures but it is not a blocker and even not a PITA, one just have to know about it and put (lots of) workarounds which doesn't spend a lot of time (yes, uglier code, but D is still wins over e.g. C++ a lot here).

-- 
Денис В. Шеломовский
Denis V. Shelomovskij

On 3/31/13 22:02 , monarch_dodra wrote:
> This is a two part post.
>
> First, I wanted to pol how many users out there were developing under
> OSX? [...]

> The second part of this post is about a specific (OSX related) bug.[...]

I'm on OSX, know nothing about bug.
/k

On 4/2/13 4:45 AM, Denis Shelomovskij wrote:
> 01.04.2013 19:50, Andrei Alexandrescu пишет:
>> On 4/1/13 11:21 AM, Denis Shelomovskij wrote:
>>> 01.04.2013 0:02, monarch_dodra пишет:
>>> Bitch please!
>> [snip]
>>
>> Denis, the above (as well as most of the message that follows) is
>> entirely inappropriate.
>
> Can't agree. I think the complaining is reasonable and it was written as
> an answer to "I found a bug, it's terrible!" to show that the situation
> is much worse a person thought. It is also aimed to help newbies to
> understand the situation if they read NG as it looks like nobody want to
> share this (relevant and valuable) information on main `dlang.org` site
> but instead a newbie can read some words about stability and conclude
> there is no such blocking issues in D. And it looks really like the
> current situation as there are lots of "Can I write for Android in D?"
> but no "Can I write for Windows in D?".

All I'm trying to get out of this is more reason in the discussion, which I am glad to see is happening.

>> It's also compounded by your antics on github,
>> where your contributions are marred by a tendency to bully other
>> contributors and to convert most every disagreement into strife. I have
>> repeatedly asked you kindly to correct that behavior to no effect.
>
> [For someone not informed about my disrespectful posts, read my answer
> to Nick]
>
> I have never really answered to this so:
>
> Honestly, I can't even imagine how my malicious silly posts can touch
> anybody except me. If someone see this what does he think? I suppose the
> only case is: "That is an annoying probably stupid person. He does it
> because he has no actual arguments so I will not read further this
> discussion as he is obviously incorrect." But looks like you really feel
> bad because of this so I will stop my stupid mean jokes.

Thank you.

> [WARNING: the following paragraph is solely IMHO and may wrongly blame
> good people, remember while reading it that I'm the one who outrage more
> than constructive participate]

When I write paragraphs that I find fit to start with such warnings, I usually end up deleting them - and it's been working great. :o)

> If we are telling about a respect, I have to say some of the main
> developers show far more strong disrespect than me (that's why I feel
> angry sometimes). The disrespect is in ignoring another person's
> arguments making that person feel like "my arguments are too stupid to
> even be arguably rejected". So I also kindly ask the developers to
> correct that behaviour. The correction is easy: in the case someone feel
> "there is misunderstanding" one (or better two) core developers without
> strong opinion on the subject are asked to attach and make unprejudiced
> decision (when they can of course, so the discussion may be frozen for a
> relatively long time which will only help everybody to rethink his
> opinion). In the case their opinion is like the first core developer
> opinion the person who is against it have to stop arguing. Probably that
> person may have an ability to add new arguments and ask the developers
> to rethink their opinion, but only after a few months.

I can't talk about the respect bestowed by (or the general thoughts of) an amorphous entity of volunteers such as the main dmd contributors or the github committers etc., but I can talk on my own behalf.

All I can say is I tried to work with you on a couple of issues and found it unduly difficult and time-intensive, so I decided to invest what little time I had in other pursuits more likely to be productive, while leaving it to others to volunteer reviewing and pulling your code. The one thing I won't tolerate is abuse and bullying of other community members.

I'd also opine that if respect is the angle of interest to you (I'd argue it shouldn't, but that's a longer discussion), this is a collaborative project by volunteers self-ranked by merit, so respect can't be asked for, but definitely can be earned. So improving the real value added by contributions - both in code and in review interactions - should definitely improve things.

>> Remember, nobody's holding a gun to your head; the door is always open
>> for entering as well as leaving. It is entirely understandable if you
>> find D unfit for whatever you do, or if its development process is not
>> to your satisfaction. But this ongoing attitude of playing the victim,
>> interpreting the team's shortcomings as incompetence doubled by malice,
>> and picking fights left and right, is not helping you or anybody.
>
> I'm not playing the victim. I'm here long enough to see and understand D
> shortcomings. If I discovered something unexpected and have troubles it
> is my own fault.
>
> I'm worrying about newbies who can start using the language as there is
> no warning on the main site about some shortcomings everybody have to be
> informed about. Damn, `std.stdio.File` is positioned as an official and
> working thing to read/write files (it is even on the main page) what can
> I add?

You definitely can add the File-related bugzilla numbers that prevent you from getting work done. (Allow me to add some meta-text here - the above paragraph's rhetoric is exactly what I'm talking about that doesn't help. If the focus is adding value, then mentioning the exact issues would definitely be better than sarcastic hyperbole.)

> I'm also worrying about D image in the case a count of D users will grow
> exponentially and (I hope it will never happen but) D will drown in hate
> posts of frustrated users who wasn't informed about thinks they expected
> to be informed about.
>
>> I compel you again to revise your attitude toward the people you work
>> and interact with in the forum and on github. If that does not happen, I
>> will propose to the core team that your github account is banned from
>> our project. Sorry it had to come to this.
>
> [Again, for someone not informed about my disrespectful posts, read my
> answer to Nick]
>
> Of course, feel free to do it. No sarcasm here, I like D and just can't
> be against of pushing out somebody who cause troubles to developers.

Understood. BTW there was no threat slinging there; I just wanted to be fair to you by telling you in advance what the options in front of us are. But now that the dialog has become rational and sensible, I hope and believe none of that would ever be necessary.


Thanks,

Andrei

03.04.2013 21:35, Andrei Alexandrescu пишет:
> On 4/2/13 4:45 AM, Denis Shelomovskij wrote:
>> I'm worrying about newbies who can start using the language as there is
>> no warning on the main site about some shortcomings everybody have to be
>> informed about. Damn, `std.stdio.File` is positioned as an official and
>> working thing to read/write files (it is even on the main page) what can
>> I add?
>
> You definitely can add the File-related bugzilla numbers that prevent
> you from getting work done. (Allow me to add some meta-text here - the
> above paragraph's rhetoric is exactly what I'm talking about that
> doesn't help. If the focus is adding value, then mentioning the exact
> issues would definitely be better than sarcastic hyperbole.)

This is "Issue 7648 - std.stdio expects file names to be encoded in CP_ACP on Windows instead of UTF-8" [1]. I also opened a pull with cautionary note [2].

[1] http://d.puremagic.com/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=7648
[2] https://github.com/D-Programming-Language/phobos/pull/1238

-- 
Денис В. Шеломовский
Denis V. Shelomovskij