On 2013-09-17 07:32, Manu wrote:

> I closed about half my open tabs after my last email (~50 left open).
> Down to 93mb. You must all use some heavy plugins or something.
> My current solution has 10 projects, one is an entire game engine with
> over 500 source files, hundreds of thousands of LOC. Intellisense info
> for all of it... dunno what to tell you.
> Eclipse uses more than 4 times that much memory idling with no project
> open at all...
>
> VS is light years better than MonoDevelop. MD is only good where VS is
> not available ;)
>
> My task manager:
> http://i.imgur.com/crbUrH1.png

Are we talking virtual or physical memory? Can the operating system affect, Windows 7 vs 8, for example?

-- 
/Jacob Carlborg

On 2013-09-17 05:32, Manu wrote:

> I presume you mean megabytes?
> Well I've been working all morning since I made that comment; I have
> about 100 tabs open for editing in VS now (I don't clean up open tabs
> often >_<), and it's sitting at 120mb.
> For reference, that's considerably less than the chrome process that
> hosts gmail (200mb!). About the same as the steam client which I haven't
> even opened since I turned on my PC, and less than double that of
> dropbox (70mb!).
> I just booted eclipse, doing absolutely nothing, no projects open on the
> start screen. over 410mb...
> I don't know why modern software uses so much memory. But it seems
> VisualStudio at ~100mb is pretty bloody good comparatively!
>
> Dunno why you're seeing 200mb? (still less than my gmail tab...)
> Perhaps you use Visual Assist or some other bulky plugins? I only have
> Visual-D installed.

Opening Xcode takes 76  MB real memory (I guess that's physical memory?) and 324 MB virtual memory.

After opening the DMD project, indexing, downloading some doc sets, it's at 227 MB real memory and 420 virtual memory.

Yesterday I got a stack overflow in our Rails application and the Ruby instance took 4 GB real memory.

-- 
/Jacob Carlborg

On Tuesday, 17 September 2013 at 06:57:04 UTC, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
> On 2013-09-17 07:32, Manu wrote:
>
>> I closed about half my open tabs after my last email (~50 left open).
>> Down to 93mb. You must all use some heavy plugins or something.
>> My current solution has 10 projects, one is an entire game engine with
>> over 500 source files, hundreds of thousands of LOC. Intellisense info
>> for all of it... dunno what to tell you.
>> Eclipse uses more than 4 times that much memory idling with no project
>> open at all...
>>
>> VS is light years better than MonoDevelop. MD is only good where VS is
>> not available ;)
>>
>> My task manager:
>> http://i.imgur.com/crbUrH1.png
>
> Are we talking virtual or physical memory? Can the operating system affect, Windows 7 vs 8, for example?

That will be the working set for the process, both virtual and physical, private and shared memory.

On Tuesday, 17 September 2013 at 06:39:59 UTC, Brad Anderson wrote:
> On Tuesday, 17 September 2013 at 06:24:20 UTC, Manu wrote:
>> On 17 September 2013 15:48, deadalnix <deadalnix@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tuesday, 17 September 2013 at 05:32:28 UTC, Manu wrote:
>>>
>>>> In my experience, more memory == slower. If you care about performance,
>>>> the
>>>> only time it's acceptable to use more memory is if your data structures
>>>> are
>>>> as efficient as they can get, and the alternative is reading off the hard
>>>> drive.
>>>> Bandwidth isn't free, cache is only so big, and logic to process and make
>>>> use of so much memory isn't free either. It usually just suggests
>>>> inefficient (or just lazy) data structures, which often also implies
>>>> inefficient processing logic.
>>>> And the more memory an app uses, the higher chance of invoking the page
>>>> file, which is a mega-killer.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I do agree as this is generally true. However, the problem isn't really
>>> cache size or bandwidth, but rather latency. We know how to increase
>>> bandwith or cache size, but the first one come at a cost with no big
>>> benefit, and the second come at increase of cost and increase of latency.
>>> What is capping the perf here is really latency.
>>>
>>
>> Latency bottlenecks are usually a function of inefficient cache usage, or a
>> working set that's too large and non-linear.
>>
>> That being said, less memory == more of your working set in cache => faster
>>> program.
>>
>>
>> Precisely.
>>
>> Dunno what to tell you. My VS instance is pretty light.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Yup, VS is one of these program that microsoft did better than the
>>> alternative :D
>>
>>
>> Perhaps the only one, and also the single reason I still use Windows
>> (despite their best efforts to ruin it more and more with almost every
>> release!). There is STILL no realistic alternative for my money, well over
>> a decade later...
>> I don't get it. VS has been there a long time. It's not even perfect; farm
>> from it in fact. But the fact that given over a decade of solid working
>> example, nobody has yet managed to create a competitive product just blows
>> my mind...
>> Seriously, where is the competition? I probably use about 10% of VS's
>> features, but the features that I do use and rely on work, and work well.
>> Although even they could be significantly improved in some very simple ways.
>>
>> I closed about half my open tabs after my last email (~50 left open). Down
>>>> to 93mb. You must all use some heavy plugins or something.
>>>> My current solution has 10 projects, one is an entire game engine with
>>>> over
>>>> 500 source files, hundreds of thousands of LOC. Intellisense info for all
>>>> of it... dunno what to tell you.
>>>> Eclipse uses more than 4 times that much memory idling with no project
>>>> open
>>>> at all...
>>>>
>>>>
>>> 4 times ? You must have a pretty light instance of eclipse !
>>>
>>
>> It's a fairly fresh eclipse install, and I just boot it up. It showed the
>> home screen, no project loaded. It was doing absolutely nothing and well
>> into 400mb.
>> When I do use it for android and appengine, it more or less works well
>> enough, but the UI feels like it's held together with stickytape and glue,
>> and it's pretty sluggish. Debugging (native code) is slow and clunky. How
>> can I take that software seriously?
>> I probably waste significant portion of my life hovering and waiting for
>> eclipse to render the pop-up variable inspection windows. That shit needs
>> to be instant, no excuse. It's just showing a value from ram.
>> Then I press a key, it doesn't take ages for the letter to appear on the
>> screen...
>
> Better get used to it.  The Gaben has spoken: http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2013/09/gabe-newell-linux-is-the-future-of-gaming-new-hardware-coming-soon/
>
> I actually agree, my experience with full blown IDEs other than VS has been terrible (and I just spent all day fixing a VS 2010 PCH corruption bug). I've always got my beloved vim to fall back on though.



Well, they want to sell their own console, Linux based.

So of course they need to create awareness for it.

Which is good for Linux gaming in general, but like commercial UNIXes, unless you use the right distribution, there is nothing for you, because of the typical fragmentation issues.

On Tuesday, 17 September 2013 at 07:24:23 UTC, PauloPinto wrote:
> Well, they want to sell their own console, Linux based.
>
> So of course they need to create awareness for it.
>

Well that do make sense. Many widows OpenGL games run faster in wine than on windows (obviously that isn't the case for DirectX). And we are talking here about the windows version of the game, not a native linux one.

> Which is good for Linux gaming in general, but like commercial UNIXes, unless you use the right distribution, there is nothing for you, because of the typical fragmentation issues.

And people are still working on new way to packages stuff. What a waste of everybody's time ! Meanwhile, windows do not have any packaging system, and that even worse :D

On Tuesday, 17 September 2013 at 01:18:39 UTC, Manu wrote:
> What kind of quantity are we talking? My VisualStudio2010 is humming away
> right now at 80mb with a large project open (less than i expected).
> It's a text editor... what does it do?

I don't know what is the minimal java runtime heap amount to make Eclipse perfectly responsive but I usually put it to 1GB+

On Tuesday, 17 September 2013 at 08:19:12 UTC, deadalnix wrote:
> On Tuesday, 17 September 2013 at 07:24:23 UTC, PauloPinto wrote:
>> Well, they want to sell their own console, Linux based.
>>
>> So of course they need to create awareness for it.
>>
>
> Well that do make sense. Many widows OpenGL games run faster in wine than on windows (obviously that isn't the case for DirectX). And we are talking here about the windows version of the game, not a native linux one.
>
>> Which is good for Linux gaming in general, but like commercial UNIXes, unless you use the right distribution, there is nothing for you, because of the typical fragmentation issues.
>
> And people are still working on new way to packages stuff. What a waste of everybody's time ! Meanwhile, windows do not have any packaging system, and that even worse :D

It is called MSI, blame bad companies for still using exe installers.

On 17/09/2013 07:24, Manu wrote:
>
>         I closed about half my open tabs after my last email (~50 left
>         open). Down
>         to 93mb. You must all use some heavy plugins or something.
>         My current solution has 10 projects, one is an entire game
>         engine with over
>         500 source files, hundreds of thousands of LOC. Intellisense
>         info for all
>         of it... dunno what to tell you.
>         Eclipse uses more than 4 times that much memory idling with no
>         project open
>         at all...
>
>
>     4 times ? You must have a pretty light instance of eclipse !
>
>
> It's a fairly fresh eclipse install, and I just boot it up. It showed
> the home screen, no project loaded. It was doing absolutely nothing and
> well into 400mb.
> When I do use it for android and appengine, it more or less works well
> enough, but the UI feels like it's held together with stickytape and
> glue, and it's pretty sluggish. Debugging (native code) is slow and
> clunky. How can I take that software seriously?
> I probably waste significant portion of my life hovering and waiting for
> eclipse to render the pop-up variable inspection windows. That shit
> needs to be instant, no excuse. It's just showing a value from ram.
> Then I press a key, it doesn't take ages for the letter to appear on the
> screen...

Android and Appengine?
There are two flaws in that comparison, the first is that apparently you are comparing an Eclipse installation with a lot more tools than your VS installation (which I'm guessing has only C++ tools, perhaps some VCS tools too?). No wonder the footprint is bigger. For example, my Eclipse instance with only DDT and Git installed, and opened on a workspace with D projects takes up 130Mb:
http://i.imgur.com/VmKzrRU.png

With the recommend JVM memory settings (see http://code.google.com/p/ddt/wiki/UserGuide#Eclipse_basics ), the usage in that startup scenario goes up to 180Mb.
But even so that is not a fair comparison, the second flaw here is that Eclipse is running on a VM, and is not actually using all the memory that is taken from the OS.

If you wanna see how much memory the Java application itself is using for its data structures, you have to use a tool like jconsole (included in the JDK) to check out JVM stats. For example, in the DDT scenario above, after startup the whole of Eclipse is just using just 40Mb for the Java heap:
http://i.imgur.com/yCPtS52.png

-- 
Bruno Medeiros - Software Engineer

On 17 September 2013 23:46, Bruno Medeiros <brunodomedeiros+dng@gmail.com>wrote:

> On 17/09/2013 07:24, Manu wrote:
>
>>
>>         I closed about half my open tabs after my last email (~50 left
>>         open). Down
>>         to 93mb. You must all use some heavy plugins or something.
>>         My current solution has 10 projects, one is an entire game
>>         engine with over
>>         500 source files, hundreds of thousands of LOC. Intellisense
>>         info for all
>>         of it... dunno what to tell you.
>>         Eclipse uses more than 4 times that much memory idling with no
>>         project open
>>         at all...
>>
>>
>>     4 times ? You must have a pretty light instance of eclipse !
>>
>>
>> It's a fairly fresh eclipse install, and I just boot it up. It showed
>> the home screen, no project loaded. It was doing absolutely nothing and
>> well into 400mb.
>> When I do use it for android and appengine, it more or less works well
>> enough, but the UI feels like it's held together with stickytape and
>> glue, and it's pretty sluggish. Debugging (native code) is slow and
>> clunky. How can I take that software seriously?
>> I probably waste significant portion of my life hovering and waiting for
>> eclipse to render the pop-up variable inspection windows. That shit
>> needs to be instant, no excuse. It's just showing a value from ram.
>> Then I press a key, it doesn't take ages for the letter to appear on the
>> screen...
>>
>
> Android and Appengine?
> There are two flaws in that comparison, the first is that apparently you
> are comparing an Eclipse installation with a lot more tools than your VS
> installation (which I'm guessing has only C++ tools, perhaps some VCS tools
> too?). No wonder the footprint is bigger. For example, my Eclipse instance
> with only DDT and Git installed, and opened on a workspace with D projects
> takes up 130Mb:
> http://i.imgur.com/VmKzrRU.png


My VS installation has VisualD, VCS tools, xbox 360, ps3, android,
emsscripten, nacl, clang and gcc tools. (I don't think these offer any
significant resource burden though, they're not really active processes)
If Eclipse has a lot more tools as you say, then it's a problem is that I
never selected them, and apparently they hog resources even when not being
used. That seems like a serious engineering fail if that's the case.
As far as I know, I don't have DDT and git installed, so you're 2 up on me
:) .. I only have android beyond default install (and no project was open).
No appengine in this installation.

With the recommend JVM memory settings (see http://code.google.com/p/ddt/**
> wiki/UserGuide#Eclipse_basics<http://code.google.com/p/ddt/wiki/UserGuide#Eclipse_basics>), the usage in that startup scenario goes up to 180Mb.
> But even so that is not a fair comparison, the second flaw here is that
> Eclipse is running on a VM, and is not actually using all the memory that
> is taken from the OS.
>

It's perfectly fair. Let's assume for a second that I couldn't care less
that it runs in a VM (I couldn't), all you're really saying is that VM's
are effectively a waste of memory and performance, and that doesn't redeem
Eclipse in any way.
You're really just suggesting that Eclipse may be inherently inefficient
because it's lynched by it's VM. So there's no salvation for it? :)

If you wanna see how much memory the Java application itself is using for
> its data structures, you have to use a tool like jconsole (included in the JDK) to check out JVM stats. For example, in the DDT scenario above, after startup the whole of Eclipse is just using just 40Mb for the Java heap: http://i.imgur.com/yCPtS52.png


I don't care how much memory the app is 'really' using beneath it's
overhead. All I care about is how much memory it's using (actually, I don't
really care about that at all, I only care about how it performs, which is
poorly), and the windows task manager surely offers the most fair measure
for comparison available to the OS, at least for the memory consumption
metric ;) .. The problem remains that I find eclipse significantly less
responsive, and the UI is messy and disorganised. I feel a lack of
coherency between different parts of Eclipse.
So in summary, I prefer and use VS whenever I have the option.

I had some experience with kdevelop this past weekend trying to find a
reasonable working environment on linux. It's fairly nice. Certainly come
along since I last tried to take it seriously a year or 2 back.
It would be nice if there was D support though. It has rudimentary support
that some whipped up, but it could do a lot better.

Can any linux MonoDevelop user enlighten me on how to use MonoDevelop4 on linux? I couldn't find a package for it anywhere... only MD3. It seems linux MD is way behind... no idea why.

On Tuesday, 17 September 2013 at 12:56:56 UTC, PauloPinto wrote:
>> And people are still working on new way to packages stuff. What a waste of everybody's time ! Meanwhile, windows do not have any packaging system, and that even worse :D
>
> It is called MSI, blame bad companies for still using exe installers.

This is only one piece of the puzzle. Ass reprositories, integration into windows update and all the goodies, and then we have something.