On 29/10/17 23:21, Joakim wrote:
> On Sunday, 29 October 2017 at 20:58:45 UTC, 12345swordy wrote:
>> On Sunday, 29 October 2017 at 18:52:06 UTC, Joakim wrote:
>>> [...]
>>
>> What makes you think that windows is a "dying platform"!? There is no evidence to suggest this.
> 
> Take a look at the links in the thread I linked you, which show PC sales dropping for the last six years and back at the level of a decade ago.

Yes, Windows is dying, and has been for a long long time now. And I'll add one or two "good riddance" while we're at it.

The point to remember, however, is that it still has a long long time still to completely die. Windows has been somewhat marginalized as development platform in recent years, but it will be along time still before it becomes irrelevant for users.

I'm not sure it makes sense for D to ignore this platform, despite its bleak future.

Shachar

On Wednesday, 1 November 2017 at 09:14:22 UTC, Shachar Shemesh wrote:
> On 29/10/17 23:21, Joakim wrote:
>> On Sunday, 29 October 2017 at 20:58:45 UTC, 12345swordy wrote:
>>> On Sunday, 29 October 2017 at 18:52:06 UTC, Joakim wrote:
>>>> [...]
>>>
>>> What makes you think that windows is a "dying platform"!? There is no evidence to suggest this.
>> 
>> Take a look at the links in the thread I linked you, which show PC sales dropping for the last six years and back at the level of a decade ago.
>
> Yes, Windows is dying, and has been for a long long time now. And I'll add one or two "good riddance" while we're at it.
>
> The point to remember, however, is that it still has a long long time still to completely die. Windows has been somewhat marginalized as development platform in recent years, but it will be along time still before it becomes irrelevant for users.
>
> I'm not sure it makes sense for D to ignore this platform, despite its bleak future.
>
> Shachar

I don't propose ignoring it, but I suggest not to invest too much more into it, like all the work it would take to get VS or other Windows IDE support up to the level where Windows devs seem to want.

On Wednesday, 1 November 2017 at 08:49:05 UTC, Joakim wrote:
> If your point is that the 1% of PC users who do such things will stick with PCs and the remaining 99% will switch to mobile, I agree with you. :)

You leave only 0% for DeX :)

On Wednesday, 1 November 2017 at 09:24:57 UTC, Joakim wrote:
>
> I don't propose ignoring it, but I suggest not to invest too much more into it, like all the work it would take to get VS or other Windows IDE support up to the level where Windows devs seem to want.

I'm not sure how much work that would take, TBH, but I think that this is perhaps a better way to phrase your concerns. Saying that people working on Windows IDEs are wasting their time is probably not going to convince them of your point of view. Rather the argument that investing X hours in improving IDE would be better spent investing it in Y other D project is a much less inflammatory point. Granted, I think people could quibble with this, but it wouldn't drive me nuts to hear it.

For a dying platform as so many advocate here, it seems to be doing fairly well.

Maybe i am too old but the whole dying platform gig has been doing all the way to Windows ME and Vista and 8 and ...

The reality is, for any user that wants to be productive Windows is hard to beat. The only thing that comes close is the extreme hardware restrictive OSx from Apple.

I do think that people here have a massive anti Microsoft bias by just reading the comments.

Mobile will overtake PC for productivity? No ... simply no.
Windows is dying? Hardly...

Has the market changed because some users can use tablets, as they are not hardcore user but only want to simply browse and mail? Yes... There has been a shift there.

But will Windows be out fazed on the corporate floor? No ... Will Windows be removed as a gaming platform and replaced by Linux / OSx? No ...

While Linux and OSx can be used very well, both platforms share too many issues. OSx being hardware limited by design, as it makes testing more easy for Apple. Linux as a market that is so fragmented on the desktop level.

At times people may want to appreciate the level of robustness that Windows is. Its easily as stable like Linux but has the support level for almost every piece of hardware.

With the inclusion of WSL ( guess what i use D on because, well, i do not want to install VS! ), it combines both world.


Maybe for some people the reason why they are being so annoying and frankly rude, is there own bias is getting in the way of the message. Its not because a person wants to write D code, that they want to install a multi GIGABYTE installation just so they can compile 64bit programs.

Same with the comments that come down to "i do not see a reason why you want 64bit on Windows", is not a good excuse.

On Wednesday, 1 November 2017 at 09:24:57 UTC, Joakim wrote:
> I don't propose ignoring it, but I suggest not to invest too much more into it, like all the work it would take to get VS or other Windows IDE support up to the level where Windows devs seem to want.

Its just shows a pure vileness to Windows users as "We do not care to fix issues on your platform, use our platform or install VS and have it bit rote on your hard drive for no reason beyond we simply do not want to support Windows on D".

No wonder some people think that Windows is a second tier citizen in the D community. It sure as hell does not feel very welcoming reading this thread.

When a person has a issue, the response seem to be very aggressive attacking that person and the platform but ignoring the actual issue. How many people posted here claiming that he wanted to have 64bit removed, when it was NOT what he wrote.

There is a issue with Windows. The whole attacking the messenger, the whole idiotic argumentation's that Windows is dying, it is all pure useless trolling the people who ask a simple questions: How to solve the D 64bit issue so that like on the Linux or OSx platform, the users can have the SAME level of consistency.

Its so strange that Go has solved the 64bit Windows a long time ago. Or C. Or C++ ... and so many other compilers that do NOT need VS installed to produce 64bit binaries on the Windows platform. So in other words, all these comments about just install VS are pure bullshit.

If you do not like to answer the question, then do not troll people. And frankly, Walter or whoever, there needed to have been put a stop to this anti Windows bullshit several days ago. As long as people use this level of disrespect towards community members because they are not using the "right" platform.

/Signed: A pissed off Windows user

On Wednesday, 1 November 2017 at 18:42:07 UTC, Bo wrote:
> There is a issue with Windows. The whole attacking the messenger, the whole idiotic argumentation's that Windows is dying, it is all pure useless trolling the people who ask a simple questions: How to solve the D 64bit issue so that like on the Linux or OSx platform, the users can have the SAME level of consistency.

Windows 32 bit is the special one - it is the ONLY platform where D works out of the box without additional downloads. That's one reason why I advocate it for just playing around - it just works.

On ALL other platforms for dmd: Win64, Linux 32/64, Mac, freebsd, you require additional downloads from the OS vendor to build your program.

The only difference is size of the download from the OS vendor, and odds that it was already installed by something else. But it is the same idea - you use the OS vendor's linker and system libs to facilitate interoperability with other language code.

On Wednesday, 1 November 2017 at 18:59:21 UTC, Adam D. Ruppe wrote:
>
> Windows 32 bit is the special one - it is the ONLY platform where D works out of the box without additional downloads. That's one reason why I advocate it for just playing around - it just works.
>
> On ALL other platforms for dmd: Win64, Linux 32/64, Mac, freebsd, you require additional downloads from the OS vendor to build your program.
>
> The only difference is size of the download from the OS vendor, and odds that it was already installed by something else. But it is the same idea - you use the OS vendor's linker and system libs to facilitate interoperability with other language code.

DMD with the default -m32 is great for just playing around. No Windows D user would deny it. I compile with that far more than with -m64 (or any LDC for that matter). It's only really when you need -m64 (or -m32mscoff for that matter), and I mean really need it, that one needs to bother with Visual Studio. Perhaps that's part of the frustration. Things are so easy with the default and so frustrating when you have to make the change. For me, that point comes when trying to call C libraries in D. Downloading Visual Studio and installing it is a one-time cost, but getting C libraries working with D is something I don't do enough to remember the tricks. If the C library is compiled with Visual Studio, then you have to use the VS linker. But it usually will be something MinGW or Cygwin. From there, you might have some series of steps that I would never remember and always need to google to get it working. That's the frustrating part. Installing Visual Studio is annoying, but not really a huge deal for me in the grand scheme of things.

On Wednesday, 1 November 2017 at 18:42:07 UTC, Bo wrote:
> For a dying platform as so many advocate here, it seems to be doing fairly well.
>
> Maybe i am too old but the whole dying platform gig has been doing all the way to Windows ME and Vista and 8 and ...
>
> The reality is, for any user that wants to be productive Windows is hard to beat. The only thing that comes close is the extreme hardware restrictive OSx from Apple.
>
> I do think that people here have a massive anti Microsoft bias by just reading the comments.
>
> Mobile will overtake PC for productivity? No ... simply no.
> Windows is dying? Hardly...
>
> Has the market changed because some users can use tablets, as they are not hardcore user but only want to simply browse and mail? Yes... There has been a shift there.
>
> But will Windows be out fazed on the corporate floor? No ... Will Windows be removed as a gaming platform and replaced by Linux / OSx? No ...
>
> While Linux and OSx can be used very well, both platforms share too many issues. OSx being hardware limited by design, as it makes testing more easy for Apple. Linux as a market that is so fragmented on the desktop level.
>
> At times people may want to appreciate the level of robustness that Windows is. Its easily as stable like Linux but has the support level for almost every piece of hardware.
>
> With the inclusion of WSL ( guess what i use D on because, well, i do not want to install VS! ), it combines both world.
>
>
> Maybe for some people the reason why they are being so annoying and frankly rude, is there own bias is getting in the way of the message. Its not because a person wants to write D code, that they want to install a multi GIGABYTE installation just so they can compile 64bit programs.
>
> Same with the comments that come down to "i do not see a reason why you want 64bit on Windows", is not a good excuse.
>
> On Wednesday, 1 November 2017 at 09:24:57 UTC, Joakim wrote:
>> I don't propose ignoring it, but I suggest not to invest too much more into it, like all the work it would take to get VS or other Windows IDE support up to the level where Windows devs seem to want.
>
> Its just shows a pure vileness to Windows users as "We do not care to fix issues on your platform, use our platform or install VS and have it bit rote on your hard drive for no reason beyond we simply do not want to support Windows on D".
>
> No wonder some people think that Windows is a second tier citizen in the D community. It sure as hell does not feel very welcoming reading this thread.
>
> When a person has a issue, the response seem to be very aggressive attacking that person and the platform but ignoring the actual issue. How many people posted here claiming that he wanted to have 64bit removed, when it was NOT what he wrote.
>
> There is a issue with Windows. The whole attacking the messenger, the whole idiotic argumentation's that Windows is dying, it is all pure useless trolling the people who ask a simple questions: How to solve the D 64bit issue so that like on the Linux or OSx platform, the users can have the SAME level of consistency.
>
> Its so strange that Go has solved the 64bit Windows a long time ago. Or C. Or C++ ... and so many other compilers that do NOT need VS installed to produce 64bit binaries on the Windows platform. So in other words, all these comments about just install VS are pure bullshit.
>
> If you do not like to answer the question, then do not troll people. And frankly, Walter or whoever, there needed to have been put a stop to this anti Windows bullshit several days ago. As long as people use this level of disrespect towards community members because they are not using the "right" platform.
>
> /Signed: A pissed off Windows user

Your rant is rife with mistakes, both factual and perceived.  Your main claim seems to be that Windows users who want to use D but don't want VS are being attacked, because the D devs are too lazy to find a way to do that.

More likely, that's considered a niche use case that the D devs on Windows don't want to bother with, since most developing for Windows probably use VS already, just like you have to use Xcode on macOS or for iOS.

As for saying Windows is dying, that is a factual examination of the data with one recommendation/application: don't bother spending a lot of time on improving D's Windows IDE support.  Nobody suggested it had anything to do with supporting Windows users who don't use VS, and it's bonkers to suggest it means we're "anti-Windows" or shows "disrespect" for Windows users.

We don't support Haiku OS either, it's not because we're anti-Haiku or disrespect its users.  It's just too small and niche for us to care.  The evidence is that Windows is heading that way too.

On Wednesday, 1 November 2017 at 19:49:04 UTC, Joakim wrote:
>
> As for saying Windows is dying, that is a factual examination of the data

When you say it is dying, I (and perhaps most others) would assume the argument you are making is that not only is Windows in decline, but also that it is about to no longer exist as a meaningful platform for programmers to code on.

This is a forecast about the future. However, the future is inherently un-knowable. Forecasts are opinions. While these forecasts may be based on facts and people could disagree about the likelihood of the forecast or their confidence in the forecast, it is opinion. It is not fact.

I wouldn't dispute that Windows is in decline. I looked up the stack overflow survey of platforms that people program on and added up the Windows components from 2013 to 2016. In 2013 it was 60.4% and steadily fell to 52.2% in 2016. The largest growth of the share was OS X (not Linux). However, even falling from 60% to 50%, it's still 50%. That's huge. And this is programmers who use Stack Overflow, not normal users. Look at the developer environment and its either Visual Studio or a text editor (Sublime or Notepad++) as most popular.

The evidence says it is in decline. And the trend doesn't look good. However, that doesn't mean it's going away. It also doesn't mean you can project the current trend into the future at the current rate or at a faster or slower rate. Who knows what the rate could be. What matters is that half of all developers (by this measure) use Windows now. Who knows what the equilibrium will be? Maybe it will stabilize at roughly equal shares across shares across Linux/OSX/Windows. Maybe Windows will become niche (in which case you could conceivably make the argument that it's dying). God only knows. But you cannot say that it is all fact and not opinion.

It is opinion. It is a forecast.


[1] https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2016

On Wednesday, 1 November 2017 at 21:19:55 UTC, jmh530 wrote:
>
> When you say it is dying, I (and perhaps most others) would assume the argument you are making is that not only is Windows in decline, but also that it is about to no longer exist as a meaningful platform for programmers to code on.
>

I would rephrase part of this as:
"...but also that it is, at some point in the near future, to no longer exist..."