On 3/23/14, 13:13, "Ola Fosheim Grøstad" <ola.fosheim.grostad+dlang@gmail.com>" wrote:
> On Sunday, 23 March 2014 at 18:08:09 UTC, 1100110 wrote:
>> I just want to point out that somehow the thread about how we need to
>> maintain a professional attitude in the forums deteriorated into
>> discussing in depth racism.
>
> Actually, racism was not discussed. What was discussed was cultural bias
> in what is appropriate using racial terms as an example.

Tomato, tomato.  I just found it slightly amusing that this is where the conversation went, not trying to call anyone or say that anything said was racist. I realize too late that my message could be interpreted in a way I didn't intend.

>
> However, I do question the public slandering of Ramon in a thread about
> appropriateness of posts. I don't think there is any cultural bias in that.

Yeah... I think I would have been ok with that had he been using an obvious alias(Anonymous, etc) or at least wasn't mentioned by name...

It does seem in poor taste.

On Sunday, 23 March 2014 at 21:42:46 UTC, 1100110 wrote:
> Tomato, tomato.  I just found it slightly amusing that this is where the conversation went, not trying to call anyone or say

Yeah, I agree that it is somewhat interesting. I guess it is a topic that is in a way fascinating because it easy to discuss and where regional differences are quite extreme.

Whenever I hear the term "the black community", I get puzzled and ask myself "what black community?". I guess that is part of the problem, what does a black professor at MIT and a black drug dealer in Bronx have in common? Not much, except some exposure to racism. So whenever the term "black", "african american" etc is tied to negative news reports the decent majority of black people feel misrepresented by the term over time. (And news tend to be negative and like to stick labels to minorities.)

> Yeah... I think I would have been ok with that had he been using an obvious alias(Anonymous, etc) or at least wasn't mentioned by name...
>
> It does seem in poor taste.

I followed the forums lurking at the time. Ramon is/was very enthusiatic about D, and shared that enthusiasm with great force. It is kind of sad when the community does not back up that enthusiasm and direct it in a direction where it can be of good use. It is quite common for newbies to be vocal, it happens because they are enthusiastic and want to bond with other users, but don't feel they get the response they are looking for. On the other hand the "veterans" in online communities feel a need to put the newbies in their proper place. It is a common phenomenon and is called "newbie bashing" (you see this in the army too). It is important that moderators step in and take the "welcoming role", setting a friendly tone, until the newbie has found his place and figured out "what the community is all about". :-)

I think it is important that the D community realize that C++ is such an annoyance that finding a better C++, that is not quite there yet, is both a revelation and a disappointment that can be quite forceful. I think the D community could utilize this enthusiasm better. In that regard I think this thread has some merit. Too many "internal jokes", "weird terminology" and "unclear decision making paths" might send signals of a community that is hard to break into.

On Monday, 24 March 2014 at 07:35:20 UTC, Ola Fosheim Grøstad wrote:
> I followed the forums lurking at the time. Ramon is/was very enthusiatic about D, and shared that enthusiasm with great force. It is kind of sad when the community does not back up that enthusiasm and direct it in a direction where it can be of good use. It is quite common for newbies to be vocal, it happens because they are enthusiastic and want to bond with other users, but don't feel they get the response they are looking for. On the other hand the "veterans" in online communities feel a need to put the newbies in their proper place. It is a common phenomenon and is called "newbie bashing" (you see this in the army too). It is important that moderators step in and take the "welcoming role", setting a friendly tone, until the newbie has found his place and figured out "what the community is all about". :-)

D community is single most friendly and helpful place I have ever seen in the internet. However, friendliness is something that goes both ways. If person continuously ignores any internal rules of conduct, demands any special attention or behaves explicitly hostile, such person has no value for community. It does not matter if is trolling or simply bad attitude, does not matter if enthusiasm is real.

Such cases happen time to time but at the same time much more people are coming and asking questions and getting help and attention without any single harsh word. It is all about attitude.

On Monday, 24 March 2014 at 13:31:34 UTC, Dicebot wrote:
> D community is single most friendly and helpful place I have ever seen in the internet.

All communities rate themselves that way, I think it is somewhere in the middle. Meaning: there is room for improvement.

There is a little bit too much elitism IMO.

> However, friendliness is something that goes both ways. If person continuously ignores any internal rules of conduct, demands any special attention or behaves explicitly hostile, such person has no value for community. It does not matter if is trolling or simply bad attitude, does not matter if enthusiasm is real.

It should, because newbie dynamics are particular to newbies.

> It is all about  attitude.

Uhu, but the community/moderators are evaluated by lurkers. Not by how newbie acts, but how what kind of response they get. If you deal well with demanding newbies, the community is portraying itself as welcoming (or even professional):

You can safely assume that 90% of the list "participants" have never actually written a single word in the newsgroups.

In that regard W.B. was right. The thread being questioned was very introvert. While maintaining group boundaries is important they should not establish barriers to entry. In that regard stating an opposing view diminished the boundary defining aspects of it.

On Monday, 24 March 2014 at 22:24:46 UTC, Ola Fosheim Grøstad wrote:
> On Monday, 24 March 2014 at 13:31:34 UTC, Dicebot wrote:
>> D community is single most friendly and helpful place I have ever seen in the internet.
>
> All communities rate themselves that way, I think it is somewhere in the middle. Meaning: there is room for improvement.
>
> There is a little bit too much elitism IMO.

I can't see this anywhere, could you elaborate? All the major contributors to D are always helpful towards newbies, especially in D.learn. And none of us think D is perfect. You should stay around #d on freenode for a while, plenty of us whine about D deficiencies every once in a while. But we continue to use the language because it still pulls its weight.

On Monday, 24 March 2014 at 23:04:16 UTC, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:
> On Monday, 24 March 2014 at 22:24:46 UTC, Ola Fosheim Grøstad wrote:
>> On Monday, 24 March 2014 at 13:31:34 UTC, Dicebot wrote:
>>> D community is single most friendly and helpful place I have ever seen in the internet.
>>
>> All communities rate themselves that way, I think it is somewhere in the middle. Meaning: there is room for improvement.
>>
>> There is a little bit too much elitism IMO.
>
> I can't see this anywhere, could you elaborate?

Sorry, I didn't read this thread about Ramon yet (I'm just going through these posts). I'll look it up now.

on
On Monday, 24 March 2014 at 23:06:27 UTC, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:
> On Monday, 24 March 2014 at 23:04:16 UTC, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:
>> On Monday, 24 March 2014 at 22:24:46 UTC, Ola Fosheim Grøstad wrote:
>>> On Monday, 24 March 2014 at 13:31:34 UTC, Dicebot wrote:
>>>> D community is single most friendly and helpful place I have ever seen in the internet.
>>>
>>> All communities rate themselves that way, I think it is somewhere in the middle. Meaning: there is room for improvement.
>>>
>>> There is a little bit too much elitism IMO.
>>
>> I can't see this anywhere, could you elaborate?
>
> Sorry, I didn't read this thread about Ramon yet (I'm just going through these posts). I'll look it up now.

Oh you mean this guy?:
http://forum.dlang.org/post/csusavszritzlaqdsxgp@forum.dlang.org

That guy really does act like a typical troll to me.

On Mon, Mar 24, 2014 at 11:08:05PM +0000, Andrej Mitrovic wrote: [...]
> >Sorry, I didn't read this thread about Ramon yet (I'm just going through these posts). I'll look it up now.
> 
> Oh you mean this guy?: http://forum.dlang.org/post/csusavszritzlaqdsxgp@forum.dlang.org
> 
> That guy really does act like a typical troll to me.

It's a bit telling that he stopped posting almost exactly around the time Iain posted a link to the Flame Warriors[1]. :P  Coincidence? Perhaps...

[1] http://www.flamewarriorsguide.com/


T

-- 
It's bad luck to be superstitious. -- YHL

On 3/24/2014 8:12 PM, H. S. Teoh wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 24, 2014 at 11:08:05PM +0000, Andrej Mitrovic wrote:
> [...]
>>> Sorry, I didn't read this thread about Ramon yet (I'm just going through
>>> these posts). I'll look it up now.
>>
>> Oh you mean this guy?:
>> http://forum.dlang.org/post/csusavszritzlaqdsxgp@forum.dlang.org
>>
>> That guy really does act like a typical troll to me.

I didn't have a problem with most of his posts, but constantly waving around that "windoze" flamebait at every possible opportunity (and then feigning innocence about it) was the real problem. And I'm even saying that as someone who does carry a lot of hatred toward windows (among many other things ;) ).

>
> It's a bit telling that he stopped posting almost exactly around the
> time Iain posted a link to the Flame Warriors[1]. :P  Coincidence?
> Perhaps...
>
> [1] http://www.flamewarriorsguide.com/
>

"We're the flaaaame waaarriors!
Don't wanna flame no more!
We're the flaaaame waaarriors!
But maybe tonight, just for one night,
they'll be gone!"

With apologies to Dokken :)

> I didn't have a problem with most of his posts, but constantly waving around that "windoze" flamebait at every possible opportunity (and then feigning innocence about it) was the real problem. And I'm even saying that as someone who does carry a lot of hatred toward windows (among many other things ;) ).

OMG, someone made an insulting Windows pun; call the cops!