On Tuesday, 6 May 2014 at 15:43:22 UTC, Manu via Digitalmars-d wrote:
> I think it's safe to attribute this almost entirely to
> the fact it exists in my fork where nobody will find it, rather than
> 'exp', where people can still report usage experience, feedback, and
> keep me on track.

As other people said, the dub registry is that 'exp' place.

On 7 May 2014 03:32, Dicebot via Digitalmars-d <digitalmars-d@puremagic.com> wrote:
> On Tuesday, 6 May 2014 at 15:52:10 UTC, John Colvin wrote:
>>
>> On Tuesday, 6 May 2014 at 15:48:59 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu
>>>
>>> I can't seem to find simd on our dub site http://code.dlang.org/search?q=simd. Did you put it there under another name?
>>>
>>> Andrei
>>
>>
>> I don't think it's there. I would love if it was, it would be a great addition to the D ecosystem.
>
>
> Which only confirms my suspicion that those who complain about lack of experimental Phobos package are likely to simply not use dub.

As I said before, dub has never even occurred to me. No windows user
is likely to naturally think to use a package manager :/
It's sitting in my phobos fork. Isn't that where everyone keeps their
developments?

If people are pushing dub, then it should really be installed with DMD.

On 5/5/2014 11:39 PM, Manu via Digitalmars-d wrote:
> There's a perfectly good pull there for not-virtual-by-default. No
> amount of beating will get that horse through, despite almost
> unanimous community support. That was... extremely discouraging, to
> say the least.

If you look, I have authored some pull requests that I think are very good, but are twisting in the wind and have for some time. Andrei has some, too. We all do.

I understand that we'd all like our efforts to find quick approval and karma, but it isn't always going to happen, and we need to not let that discourage us.

On Tuesday, 6 May 2014 at 17:47:31 UTC, Manu via Digitalmars-d wrote:
>
> Is that something that's general knowledge, or a strategy that people
> are already using? This is the first time the idea has ever occurred
> to me.

> I don't know. But at face value, I'd suggest that it's a concept
> that's quite foreign to Windows users. It never occurred to me until
> right now.

It never occurred to you that people's libraries would be published as part of a centralised repository with a tool that manages dependencies? It's pretty common-place in a variety of languages. (https://rubygems.org/ https://pypi.python.org/pypi http://www.cpan.org/ etc...).

With regard to experimental modules, it's good to get them some real-world exposure first via dub even if there was some "staging" package in phobos.

> If that's a popular approach, then the the dub package listing
> probably needs greater visibility. It well maintained?
>
> dub should almost certainly be bundled with DMD if this is to become a
> standard approach.

It's been discussed a few times. I think greater stability was wanted before bundling.

> This only addresses libs though, not experimental compiler features.
> That needs an agreed policy for enabling/disabling such features, and
> I don't see how that can escape living in the DMD repo?
>

Good point.

On Tuesday, 6 May 2014 at 18:00:14 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
> On 5/5/2014 11:39 PM, Manu via Digitalmars-d wrote:
>> There's a perfectly good pull there for not-virtual-by-default. No
>> amount of beating will get that horse through, despite almost
>> unanimous community support. That was... extremely discouraging, to
>> say the least.
>
> If you look, I have authored some pull requests that I think are very good, but are twisting in the wind and have for some time. Andrei has some, too. We all do.
>
> I understand that we'd all like our efforts to find quick approval and karma, but it isn't always going to happen, and we need to not let that discourage us.

Generally, championing something you believe in tends to require a great deal of personal effort into trying to make it a reality.

On Tuesday, 6 May 2014 at 17:57:11 UTC, Manu via Digitalmars-d wrote:
> On 7 May 2014 03:32, Dicebot via Digitalmars-d
> <digitalmars-d@puremagic.com> wrote:
>> On Tuesday, 6 May 2014 at 15:52:10 UTC, John Colvin wrote:
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, 6 May 2014 at 15:48:59 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu
>>>>
>>>> I can't seem to find simd on our dub site
>>>> http://code.dlang.org/search?q=simd. Did you put it there under another
>>>> name?
>>>>
>>>> Andrei
>>>
>>>
>>> I don't think it's there. I would love if it was, it would be a great
>>> addition to the D ecosystem.
>>
>>
>> Which only confirms my suspicion that those who complain about lack of
>> experimental Phobos package are likely to simply not use dub.
>
> As I said before, dub has never even occurred to me. No windows user
> is likely to naturally think to use a package manager :/

Well, dub and code.dlang.org is a good way for them to start :p

> It's sitting in my phobos fork. Isn't that where everyone keeps their
> developments?

not once they're done enough to be useful. See all of the projects: http://code.dlang.org/

On 5/6/2014 10:47 AM, Manu via Digitalmars-d wrote:
> On 7 May 2014 01:46, Andrei Alexandrescu via Digitalmars-d
> I'm not even sure what the process it... if I go through and "LGTM" a
> bunch of pulls, does someone accept my judgement and click the merge
> button?
> You can see why I might not feel qualified to do such a thing?

You don't need to be qualified (although you certainly are) to review PR's. The process is anyone can review/comment on them. Non-language-changing PR's can be pulled by anyone on "Team DMD". Language changing PR's need to be approved by Andrei and I.

"Team DMD" consists of people who have a consistent history of doing solid work reviewing PR's.


> I'll criticise at least 10 pull requests in the morning. I'll be
> curious to see what happens.

Great!


>>> I can't review the Obj-C patch. 1, it's huge, 2, I don't know anything
>>> about it, other than I'd really like to use D on iOS and that's a
>>> major hurdle.
>>
>>
>> Surely there must be something that should catch your fancy among the
>> remaining 189 patches.
>
> We'll find out... when I wake up.

You don't actually have to understand the entire PR in order to do reviews. You can do micro reviews like "needs explanatory comment", "this line is bad style", "this section looks like a buffer overflow", "bad formatting", "don't use gets()", etc.

On Tuesday, 6 May 2014 at 17:57:11 UTC, Manu via Digitalmars-d wrote:
> As I said before, dub has never even occurred to me. No windows user
> is likely to naturally think to use a package manager :/
> It's sitting in my phobos fork. Isn't that where everyone keeps their
> developments?
>
> If people are pushing dub, then it should really be installed with DMD.

DUB should feel pretty natural on any operating system if you are a Python (PyPi), Ruby (Gems), JavaScript (NPM), Perl (CPAN), or PHP (PEAR) programmer. Although PyPi I know doesn't work as well on Windows. (It doesn't explain to you clearly how to install an MSVC compiler for PIP and what not.) I think it would be healthy to host supplementary modules first with DUB as third party modules, and then get them merged into Phobos after they have seen some real world use. That's sure to result in a faster turnaround time for going from experimentation to real usage.

On Tuesday, 6 May 2014 at 17:57:11 UTC, Manu via Digitalmars-d wrote:
>> Which only confirms my suspicion that those who complain about lack of
>> experimental Phobos package are likely to simply not use dub.
>
> As I said before, dub has never even occurred to me. No windows user
> is likely to naturally think to use a package manager :/
> It's sitting in my phobos fork. Isn't that where everyone keeps their
> developments?

It is usual way to handle Phobos proposals that are going into review queue. If you have a stand-alone module that is ready to be experimented with, you make an own repo for it and provide as dub package. This makes possible for users to fetch it easily and work with latest master version if desired without waiting for new DMD release.

I can't comment about Windows user mentality but seems like other language package managers are used quite a lot on Windows. Suggestions about making it more recognized are welcome.

> If people are pushing dub, then it should really be installed with DMD.

It is the plan right now and I remember getting a conceptual agreement from Andrei about it. Problem is there are several things that need to be stabilized in it before such distribution may happen and Sonke is pretty much only person working on it continuously AFAICS. Any effort that is needed to maintain "exp.*" is better to be put into getting dub into desired state.

I can volunteer to manage actual dub inclusion process but problem is code needs  some work before it (and I have been doing close to 0 D programming other than my job lately).

On 5/6/2014 11:02 AM, w0rp wrote:
> Generally, championing something you believe in tends to require a great deal of
> personal effort into trying to make it a reality.

That's right. Sometimes, we're lucky to find a champion step up and carry the flag for us, but 98% of the time we've got to champion it ourselves, or it just won't happen.