On 2/18/2018 11:02 PM, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
> On Sunday, February 18, 2018 22:17:49 Walter Bright via Digitalmars-d wrote:
>> But that's still the mail client, not the NNTP software.
> 
> It's a problem with how mailman is configured. Yes, the user can remove the
> second e-mail address from "To" when replying, but that's easy to miss, and
> as I understand it, the e-mail client is doing the correct thing when it
> puts all of the addresses in the "Reply-To" header in "To" when responding.
> Mailman shouldn't be putting two address in the "Reply-To" field if the
> first place, and if didn't, then this wouldn't be a problem.
> 
> And no, that's not a problem with NNTP, but it's a problem with the
> interface that many of us use to interact with the newsgroup, and it's not a
> problem with the clients that we're running ourselves to read and send
> e-mail to the mailing list.

Just to let you know, Thunderbird (what I use to post to NNTP) does not do that. Here's what the headers TB generates:

-------------------------------------
Path: digitalmars.com!.POSTED.c-73-83-17-42.hsd1.wa.comcast.net!not-for-mail
From: Walter Bright <newshound2@digitalmars.com>
Newsgroups: digitalmars.D
Subject: Re: Annoyance with new integer promotion deprecations
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 22:17:49 -0800
Organization: Digital Mars
Message-ID: <p6dq6b$4qh$1@digitalmars.com>
References: <20180205192225.GA30118@quickfur.ath.cx>
 <mailman.3774.1519004362.9493.digitalmars-d@puremagic.com>
 <p6dckf$1t3u$1@digitalmars.com>
 <mailman.3777.1519008737.9493.digitalmars-d@puremagic.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 06:17:47 +0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: digitalmars.com; posting-host="c-73-83-17-42.hsd1.wa.comcast.net:73.83.17.42";
	logging-data="4945"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@digitalmars.com"
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101
 Thunderbird/52.6.0
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3777.1519008737.9493.digitalmars-d@puremagic.com>
Content-Language: en-US
Xref: digitalmars.com digitalmars.D:311870
-----------------------------------

Note that the [From:] email address shown is configurable in TB. It doesn't have to be a real address.

On 18 Feb. 2018 10:25 pm, "Walter Bright via Digitalmars-d" < digitalmars-d@puremagic.com> wrote:

On 2/18/2018 7:52 PM, Nick Sabalausky (Abscissa) wrote:

> Well, it's also the world's most inconsistant and statndards-disregarding. We're talking 1990's MS-level behavior here. It's *always* causing trouble for something or another.
>

And the great thing about NNTP is that the user gets to choose the client. Not the server. If you don't like the way your client behaves, use another one.


Except in this case it's you that doesn't like the way my mail client behaves.

I don't want to install software, I'll continue using Gmail, undoubtedly the world's most popular mail client... I feel like this client should be well supported by the forum software, and not cause problems in its default settings (which it seems to revert to frequently... Maybe they update?)

On Monday, February 19, 2018 00:36:11 Walter Bright via Digitalmars-d wrote:
> On 2/18/2018 11:02 PM, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
> > On Sunday, February 18, 2018 22:17:49 Walter Bright via Digitalmars-d
wrote:
> >> But that's still the mail client, not the NNTP software.
> >
> > It's a problem with how mailman is configured. Yes, the user can remove the second e-mail address from "To" when replying, but that's easy to miss, and as I understand it, the e-mail client is doing the correct thing when it puts all of the addresses in the "Reply-To" header in "To" when responding. Mailman shouldn't be putting two address in the "Reply-To" field if the first place, and if didn't, then this wouldn't be a problem.
> >
> > And no, that's not a problem with NNTP, but it's a problem with the interface that many of us use to interact with the newsgroup, and it's not a problem with the clients that we're running ourselves to read and send e-mail to the mailing list.
>
> Just to let you know, Thunderbird (what I use to post to NNTP) does not do that. Here's what the headers TB generates:
>
> -------------------------------------
> Path:
> digitalmars.com!.POSTED.c-73-83-17-42.hsd1.wa.comcast.net!not-for-mail
> From: Walter Bright <newshound2@digitalmars.com>
> Newsgroups: digitalmars.D
> Subject: Re: Annoyance with new integer promotion deprecations
> Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 22:17:49 -0800
> Organization: Digital Mars
> Message-ID: <p6dq6b$4qh$1@digitalmars.com>
> References: <20180205192225.GA30118@quickfur.ath.cx>
>   <mailman.3774.1519004362.9493.digitalmars-d@puremagic.com>
>   <p6dckf$1t3u$1@digitalmars.com>
>   <mailman.3777.1519008737.9493.digitalmars-d@puremagic.com>
> Mime-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Injection-Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 06:17:47 +0000 (UTC)
> Injection-Info: digitalmars.com;
> posting-host="c-73-83-17-42.hsd1.wa.comcast.net:73.83.17.42";
>   logging-data="4945"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@digitalmars.com"
> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101
>   Thunderbird/52.6.0
> In-Reply-To: <mailman.3777.1519008737.9493.digitalmars-d@puremagic.com>
> Content-Language: en-US
> Xref: digitalmars.com digitalmars.D:311870
> -----------------------------------
>
> Note that the [From:] email address shown is configurable in TB. It doesn't have to be a real address.

Well, I don't use NNTP, and when your message arrived from the mailing list, it had this in its headers:

Reply-To: Walter Bright <newshound2@digitalmars.com>,
        "digitalmars.D" <digitalmars-d@puremagic.com>

So, regardless of what you send via NNTP, mailman is sending a Reply-To with your e-mail address in addition to the mailing list address, and that's what's causing the problem. So, anyone who's using the newsgroup / mailing list / forum via the mailing list interface is going to have this problem regardless of what their e-mail client is and regardless of what client or interface the person sending the message used. The only way someone using the mailing list wouldn't have a problem would be if their e-mail client ignored the Reply-To header and used the From header to decide which e-mail address to reply to, which would be incorrect behavior for an e-mail client.

As long as mailman is sending both addresses in the Reply-To header instead of just the mailing list's e-mail address, anyone using the mailing list interface is going to be sending e-mails to both the mailing list and the person they're replying to unless they manually remove the person's address from the To field before sending the message.

The only solution that I see is for Brad to adjust mailman's configuration so that it stops putting the poster's e-mail address in the Reply-To header.

- Jonathan M Davis

On 2/19/2018 12:52 AM, Manu wrote:
> On 18 Feb. 2018 10:25 pm, "Walter Bright via Digitalmars-d" <digitalmars-d@puremagic.com <mailto:digitalmars-d@puremagic.com>> wrote:
> 
>     On 2/18/2018 7:52 PM, Nick Sabalausky (Abscissa) wrote:
> 
>         Well, it's also the world's most inconsistant and
>         statndards-disregarding. We're talking 1990's MS-level behavior here.
>         It's *always* causing trouble for something or another.
> 
> 
>     And the great thing about NNTP is that the user gets to choose the client.
>     Not the server. If you don't like the way your client behaves, use another one.
> 
> 
> Except in this case it's you that doesn't like the way my mail client behaves.

You're right, I don't like that your mail client sends me private email for every forum reply you make to me. This is NOTHING to do with NNTP or the forum software. It's YOUR mail client.

There's nothing I nor anyone here can do about your mail client.


> I don't want to install software, I'll continue using Gmail, undoubtedly the world's most popular mail client... I feel like this client should be well supported by the forum software, and not cause problems in its default settings (which it seems to revert to frequently... Maybe they update?)

The D forum software has nothing to do with how you configure YOUR email client.

Note that you can use DFeed itself to interact with the newsgroup. You don't have to install anything to do that.

On Sunday, 18 February 2018 at 20:01:39 UTC, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
> On Sunday, February 18, 2018 19:42:07 Johan Engelen via Digitalmars-d wrote:
>> > There are hundreds of lines I need to molest to make the compiler shut up. I won't type another line of code on my colour library until this noise is gone... I will not maintain it. I am emotionally incapable of assaulting my code with those casts.
>>
>> Using the `-transition=intpromote` compile flag is no option for you?
>
> Since that's a transition flag, it's really only a stop-gap solution. So, if his issue is that he doesn't like having the casts in his code as opposed to not wanting to deal with updating his code right now, the flag really doesn't help.

I thought Manu explicitly mentioned that he'd rather have possible code breakage than the deprecation message. I'm assuming in his case there will not be any breakage. Using `-transition=intpromote` will change to the C semantics and shuts up the deprecation messages. With time the semantics of `-transition=intpromote` will become the new default and the flag is no longer needed. So the flag is very helpful in avoiding having to adjust the code.

> I'd say that if he's not going to abandon his library, he either needs to just grit his teeth and use the explicit casts, or he's going to need to refactor the code so that the casts are unnecessary.

I don't see how one would refactor `ubyte foo(ubyte a) { return -a; }` and improve things.

-Johan

_Please_ keep the mail/nntp/... discussion separate or private. It's clobbering the topic.

Thanks,
  Johan

On 02/19/2018 03:52 AM, Manu wrote:
> On 18 Feb. 2018 10:25 pm, "Walter Bright via Digitalmars-d" <
> digitalmars-d@puremagic.com> wrote:
> 
> On 2/18/2018 7:52 PM, Nick Sabalausky (Abscissa) wrote:
> 
>> Well, it's also the world's most inconsistant and statndards-disregarding.
>> We're talking 1990's MS-level behavior here. It's *always* causing trouble
>> for something or another.
>>
> 
> And the great thing about NNTP is that the user gets to choose the client.
> Not the server. If you don't like the way your client behaves, use another
> one.
> 
> 
> Except in this case it's you that doesn't like the way my mail client
> behaves.
> 

Because your mail client is BROKEN.

> I don't want to install software, I'll continue using Gmail, undoubtedly
> the world's most popular mail client...

Then petition *Google* to fix their shitty fucking software. You've already been told it has fuck all to do with NNTP.

Seriously, why the fuck would ANYONE think that by relying on Google software they're somehow NOT being dragged along by the ear on Google's every whim and misstep. Christ, we've already been through all this SAME EXACT shit in the 90's with Microsoft, let's try actually *learning* from it and move on.

On Monday, 19 February 2018 at 02:23:02 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
>
> This one isn't double size. But google does insert some weird fields:
>

Almost certainly, that 'wierd' stuff is related to googles insidious need to track and record EVERYTHING *you* do, so it can build an even better profile of you (usually without you even knowing it does so), and then, having achieved this objective, it switches to it primary objective : to throw even more targeted advertising at you.

The human race has become nothing more than fodder for targetted advertising.

See... that's the mistake Microsoft made in the 80s and 90s - they just didn't understood the psychology of the gift economy, and how to manipulate it, and profit from it.

That's the only reason why we're discussing Google mail instead of Microsoft mail.

Nick Sabalausky (Abscissa) <SeeWebsiteToContactMe@semitwist.com> wrote:
> On 02/19/2018 03:52 AM, Manu wrote:
>> On 18 Feb. 2018 10:25 pm, "Walter Bright via Digitalmars-d" < digitalmars-d@puremagic.com> wrote:
>> 
>> On 2/18/2018 7:52 PM, Nick Sabalausky (Abscissa) wrote:
>> 
>>> Well, it's also the world's most inconsistant and statndards-disregarding. We're talking 1990's MS-level behavior here. It's *always* causing trouble for something or another.
>>> 
>> 
>> And the great thing about NNTP is that the user gets to choose the client. Not the server. If you don't like the way your client behaves, use another one.
>> 
>> 
>> Except in this case it's you that doesn't like the way my mail client behaves.
>> 
> 
> Because your mail client is BROKEN.
> 
>> I don't want to install software, I'll continue using Gmail, undoubtedly the world's most popular mail client...
> 
> Then petition *Google* to fix their shitty fucking software. You've already been told it has fuck all to do with NNTP.
> 
> Seriously, why the fuck would ANYONE think that by relying on Google software they're somehow NOT being dragged along by the ear on Google's every whim and misstep. Christ, we've already been through all this SAME EXACT shit in the 90's with Microsoft, let's try actually *learning* from it and move on.

It's no wonder that D has so few contributors if they are actively scared away.

If you want more people to contribute, make it as easy for them as possible. I really don't understand why this cannot be solved on the server. Replying to all adresses in the Reply-To: header isn't what I would call broken anyway. Is he even using NNTP? Or maybe the mailing list Interface?

On Tuesday, 20 February 2018 at 06:40:25 UTC, Tobias Müller wrote:
> It's no wonder that D has so few contributors if they are actively scared away.

C'mon... was it really that scary?

> If you want more people to contribute, make it as easy for them as possible.....

and 'easy as possible' is already done for them - just use this forum as I do, from this website.

what is a nntp client anyway?

I think I recall using one back in the 90's...but that was so long aggggooooo.......