On Tuesday, 7 May 2019 at 22:46:07 UTC, H. S. Teoh wrote:
> On Tue, May 07, 2019 at 06:00:04PM -0400, Nick Sabalausky
[...]
>> Finally, I discovered Pale Moon just a few weeks ago. Managed to find (better!) alternatives to the add-ons that weren't compatible.
>
> Glanced over it briefly.  Looks very promising indeed.  If it supports the Vimperator plugin, I may very well switch to it, since luakit appears to be only marginally maintained recently.
[...]

Something similar: https://addons.palemoon.org/addon/pentadactyl/

On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 01:34:40PM +0000, ShadoLight via Digitalmars-d wrote:
> On Tuesday, 7 May 2019 at 22:46:07 UTC, H. S. Teoh wrote:
> > On Tue, May 07, 2019 at 06:00:04PM -0400, Nick Sabalausky
> [...]
> > > Finally, I discovered Pale Moon just a few weeks ago. Managed to find (better!) alternatives to the add-ons that weren't compatible.
> > 
> > Glanced over it briefly.  Looks very promising indeed.  If it supports the Vimperator plugin, I may very well switch to it, since luakit appears to be only marginally maintained recently.
> [...]
> 
> Something similar: https://addons.palemoon.org/addon/pentadactyl/

Yeah, I found that yesterday while browsing Pale Moon's addons. Perhaps it's time to give it a spin.


T

-- 
Question authority. Don't ask why, just do it.

On 5/7/19 7:06 PM, H. S. Teoh wrote:
> 
> (I've had the pleasure of experiencing upgrading from one major release
> to another with a single command (apt-get dist-upgrade), and having it
> Just Work(tm) without even needing to reboot(!).

Whoa, I'm jealous of that! Here on Manjaro, I've gotten into the habit of only doing an update if I'm ready to reboot immediately after, because too many times when I didn't, the update would cause the system to become unstable and quirky until I rebooted. (But then, I use KDE, so maybe that's why.)

On Sat, May 11, 2019 at 02:35:39PM -0400, Nick Sabalausky (Abscissa) via Digitalmars-d wrote:
> On 5/7/19 7:06 PM, H. S. Teoh wrote:
> > 
> > (I've had the pleasure of experiencing upgrading from one major
> > release to another with a single command (apt-get dist-upgrade), and
> > having it Just Work(tm) without even needing to reboot(!).
> 
> Whoa, I'm jealous of that! Here on Manjaro, I've gotten into the habit of only doing an update if I'm ready to reboot immediately after, because too many times when I didn't, the update would cause the system to become unstable and quirky until I rebooted. (But then, I use KDE, so maybe that's why.)

Keep in mind, though, that this was about a decade ago.  Things have changed, and with the introduction of things like systemd, you can't realistically upgrade to a new OS release without rebooting at *some* point.

Also, upgrading anything related to that monster called X11 (including all GUI "desktops" built on top of that) pretty much requires restarting X11 and everything above it. While this can be done without actually rebooting, from the user's POV it might as well be the same thing.


T

-- 
People who are more than casually interested in computers should have at least some idea of what the underlying hardware is like. Otherwise the programs they write will be pretty weird. -- D. Knuth

Thanks for the input, all.

If you don't already know me by know, I'll warn you: There's a lot of ranty-ness the further this gets. But I *do* have a (tentative) plan...

So, for anyone curious, and for documentation purposes, my additional research tells me a few things:

- Apparently, Linux (libptp) and iOS both support PTP (ie, treating a USB device as a digital camera and transferring photos). Don't know what the UX is like on Linux, yet.

- PTP doesn't support videos (only photos), but the MS-created extension "MTP" does. It's apparently on Linux (libmtp), but I'm still unclear whether iOS supports it, or if not, whether there's another good way to transfer videos between iOS and Linux. (Again, I'm not much of an iOS guy myself...Hell, I don't even like Android, but that's what my phone is.)

- That alone (photo and video transfer) accounts for the main iPhone connectivity I was concerned with[...trying to get her to actually use since she's constantly low in iPhone storage space and doesn't know how to sync]. There *is* some iOS connectivity (unfortunately forgot what) that is still yet-to-be-working on Linux. But it seems that general, overall phone-wide iPhone backups are possible on Linux, which is an extra bonus on top of the photos/videos I'm mainly concerned with.

- Apparently it's possible these days to use ribbon-based versions of MS  Office (which she likes) through Wine. Although, TBH, she doesn't seem to use Word (or other Office tools) all that much anymore these days, AFAICT.

- I guess, as a last resort anyway, she can still just use her old laptop and a USB HDD for anything her new laptop has any issues with. (Although her old one doesn't do USB3, but still...feasible.)

++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Based on all of your helpful feedback, I've given a few of the latest versions of Ubuntu and Lubuntu a spin in the ol' Virtual Machine. (Aside: I was surprised - it seems I never touched VMs since I switched from Debian Testing to Manjaro back I-don't-know-when-ago, so I had to reinstall one. *Almost* had to give up on VMWare in favor of Oracle VirtualBox due to apparent Manjaro-host issues, but finally managed to get it working).

My (L)Ubuntu-client results:

- *Number 1*:
Lubuntu's homepage is <lubuntu.me>...It is *NOT* the outdated and rubbish <lubuntu.net> which search engine results would have you believe.

- These days, LXDE now has an offshoot I never knew existed, called LXQt (ie, Like the name suggests, it's LXDE, but based on Qt instead of &@#!%* GTK).

- Newest Lubuntu LTS (18.04) still just uses LXDE, but newest Lubuntu non-LTS (18.10) is updated to use LXQt.

- Stock Ubuntu is just as OSX-envious as I remember from the pre-Unity GNOME 2 days, and MUCH slower.

- It turns out, based on actual hands-on experience, LXDE (Lub. 18.04) is still just as crap as ever (though vastly faster than stock Ubuntu), but LXQt (Lub. 18.10) is actually really, really, *REALLY* freaking *GOOD*. In fact, *so* freaking good, I'm REALLY tempted to ditch KDE in favor of LXQt myself!!!  (Biggest holdback is the fact that <https://github.com/papylhomme/diskmonitor> doesn't have a widget or systray tool for LXQt. God I wish [*proactive*!!] S.M.A.R.T. tools like that were more standard!!! It's an absolute SIN against computing that they aren't </rant>)

- As a side note, I'm still absolutely amazed, by how ALL the Win9x+ imitating desktops STILL, even *OVER* twenty years later in 2019, *still* completely and utterly fail to even *remotely* match (let alone surpass) the seamless UX simplicity of...adjusting the freaking taskbar...basic no-mess drag-to-resize it...basic intuitive reorienting of its mounted side (while having side-mounted panels actually *WORK*)...that Windows was *perfectly* capable of **24 YEARS** ago!!! Pathetic, linux. Absolutely pathetic!! (*This* is why I'm still very tempted to make my own DE, even though I don't know the first thing about hooking a home-spun DE into a linux desktop.)

- Trying to convert stock Ubuntu LTS to LXDE (let alone LXQt) is...well...absolutely INSANE. I can't even find a freaking way of *querying* whether I'm using LXDE vs LXQt (other than the overly-objective question of "Does the UI seem crap or good?"), let alone which version of which I'm running (and no, the package managers don't help because even on Lubuntu they report I have *NEITHER* LXDE *NOR* LXQt even installed!!!), let alone trying to get Ubuntu LTS to use something Lubuntu added in a non-LTS...just...forget it, screw the whole "replace stock Ubuntu's godawful, Apple-envious, slow-as-f*** DE" notion entirely...

"Summary" (That's "TL;DR" for you nerds...):
------------------------------------------------

Unless I hit upon unexpected roadblocks, my current plan is:

1. Get a machine meeting the various correct physical requirements that also supports unlocking the bootloader (so I can kill Windows in favor of Linux). I suspect we can get this pretty cheap, as long as the onboard-CDR-in-2019 requirement doesn't prove TOO esoteric (Modern PC manufacturers *LOVE* artificially limiting their machines to iPad capabilities for inexplicable reasons...).

2. Get a modest USB3 HDD to handle archival needs and shuffling data between old-and-new PCs (Because even today, direct LAN data-transfer across different OSes (or even the same OS in many unfortunate cases, especially if mobiles are involved) is still a royal PITA).

3. Then I'll dual-boot-install Lubuntu 18.10 (non-LTS), but retain an optional OEM Windoze partition just-in-case. I'll get what she needs up-and-running on that, figure out how to set up automatic updates, and leave it at that until Lubuntu has their first LXQt-based LTS...at which point I'll update the system to that, re-enable automatic updates, and laugh maniacally until either A. It becomes clear I've made huge a mistake somewhere or B. It becomes clear it's time for her NEXT new computer and I'm forced to prepare ANOTHER round of questionable compromises for the alleged sake of "progress"...

Speaking of which...I don't suppose anyone knows where I could find for myself...a laptop with:

- SSD+HDD
- DVD-RW (because peripherals are the *obvious* enemy of portability)
- Hardware killswitches for things like WiFi/bluetooth/webcam(if any)/mic(if any)/gps(if any) (because why *wouldn't* any reasonable human want that? But I guess "reasonable" must be the sticking point...)
- A non-glossy matte screen (again...*duh!!!*...Bonus points if it isn't short-screen)
- Good battery life when GPU is NOT active.
- HDMI-out (duh!)
- An actually *sufficient* number of USB (and USB3) ports...(again...peripherals are the *obvious* enemy of portability, and laptop keyboards are *always* crap).
- AND...perchance...to dream...a competitive CPU/GPU that would allow me to play the few AAA games I actually care about with a Steam controller rather than DualShock/XBox, and **maybe** even Oculus/Vive? I figure that would be $$$, granted, and would obviously kill battery whenever the GPU is active, but...but is it *really* too "lack of completely unnecessary compromises" to even consider???

If so, even if its $$$, then you would *totally* be my hero (and, yes, I realize that's such a *HUGE* honor, but please, don't trip over each other reaching for such a star!!!) ;)

On Saturday, 25 May 2019 at 07:16:59 UTC, Nick Sabalausky (Abscissa) wrote:
> Thanks for the input, all.
>
> If you don't already know me by know, I'll warn you: There's a lot of ranty-ness the further this gets. But I *do* have a (tentative) plan...
>
> [...]

Have you looked at
        https://elementary.io/
You have to pay for it, but it is a pretty good Linux option (for you too, if I may guess at from your comments).

On Saturday, 25 May 2019 at 07:16:59 UTC, Nick Sabalausky (Abscissa) wrote:
> Thanks for the input, all.
> [...]
> - Apparently, Linux (libptp) and iOS both support PTP (ie, treating a USB device as a digital camera and transferring photos). Don't know what the UX is like on Linux, yet.
>
> [...]

MTP works fine with Android. However, MTP by design is very unreliable. Its practically useless for large files. With android phones though, KDE connect helps a lot.

> - That alone (photo and video transfer) accounts for the main iPhone connectivity I was concerned with[...trying to get her to actually use since she's constantly low in iPhone storage space and doesn't know how to sync]. There *is* some iOS connectivity (unfortunately forgot what) that is still yet-to-be-working on Linux. But it seems that general, overall phone-wide iPhone backups are possible on Linux, which is an extra bonus on top of the photos/videos I'm mainly concerned with.

 If you want to transfer large videos to the iPhone, you can try MTP. If it doesn't work, iTunes on Wine might be the way to go.

> - Apparently it's possible these days to use ribbon-based versions of MS
>  Office (which she likes) through Wine. Although, TBH, she doesn't seem to use Word (or other Office tools) all that much anymore these days, AFAICT.

You can also install the latest LibreOffice as a back up, and configure it to use the ribbon UI. https://itsfoss.com/libreoffice-5-3-released/ Its just selecting the right view in the view menu.

> - I guess, as a last resort anyway, she can still just use her old laptop and a USB HDD for anything her new laptop has any issues with. (Although her old one doesn't do USB3, but still...feasible.)
>
> [...]

As a Lubuntu user, didn't know this. Thanks.

> - These days, LXDE now has an offshoot I never knew existed, called LXQt (ie, Like the name suggests, it's LXDE, but based on Qt instead of &@#!%* GTK).
>
> [...]

GNOME is pretty much OSX + iOS

> - It turns out, based on actual hands-on experience, LXDE (Lub. 18.04) is still just as crap as ever (though vastly faster than stock Ubuntu), but LXQt (Lub. 18.10) is actually really, really, *REALLY* freaking *GOOD*. In fact, *so* freaking good, I'm REALLY tempted to ditch KDE in favor of LXQt myself!!!  (Biggest holdback is the fact that <https://github.com/papylhomme/diskmonitor> doesn't have a widget or systray tool for LXQt. God I wish [*proactive*!!] S.M.A.R.T. tools like that were more standard!!! It's an absolute SIN against computing that they aren't </rant>)
>
> [...]

Well a lot of the major DEs have manpower issues, and to add to this a massive transition from X11 to Wayland. Kind of hard to work on "minor" issues.

> - Trying to convert stock Ubuntu LTS to LXDE (let alone LXQt) is...well...absolutely INSANE. I can't even find a freaking way of *querying* whether I'm using LXDE vs LXQt (other than the overly-objective question of "Does the UI seem crap or good?"), let alone which version of which I'm running (and no, the package managers don't help because even on Lubuntu they report I have *NEITHER* LXDE *NOR* LXQt even installed!!!), let alone trying to get Ubuntu LTS to use something Lubuntu added in a non-LTS...just...forget it, screw the whole "replace stock Ubuntu's godawful, Apple-envious, slow-as-f*** DE" notion entirely...
>
> [...]

Never worth converting the DE on most Distros. Use what ever you got. Otehrwise you end up with broken system or a lot of bloat.


> "Summary" (That's "TL;DR" for you nerds...):
> ------------------------------------------------
>
> [...]

Dell laptops are actually sold with Linux (developer editions)

> 2. Get a modest USB3 HDD to handle archival needs and shuffling data between old-and-new PCs (Because even today, direct LAN data-transfer across different OSes (or even the same OS in many unfortunate cases, especially if mobiles are involved) is still a royal PITA).

USB3 HDDs are fairly cheap. Unfortunately we don't have a proper file system other than good old FAT32. You can try ExFat, but you will need to install extra software (I think its not necessary for Lubuntu)

> 3. Then I'll dual-boot-install Lubuntu 18.10 (non-LTS), but retain an optional OEM Windoze partition just-in-case. I'll get what she needs up-and-running on that, figure out how to set up automatic updates, and leave it at that until Lubuntu has their first LXQt-based LTS...at which point I'll update the system to that, re-enable automatic updates, and laugh maniacally until either A. It becomes clear I've made huge a mistake somewhere or B. It becomes clear it's time for her NEXT new computer and I'm forced to prepare ANOTHER round of questionable compromises for the alleged sake of "progress"...
>
> [...]


Kill switches are offered by the Purism brand laptops : https://puri.sm/products/
They also satisfy most of the other requirements.
They're a privacy oriented brand, and they have linux pre-installed. might be worth checking out. I have no experience with their products though.
There's also System 76 https://system76.com/laptops for more performance oriented stuff.

On Sat, 2019-05-25 at 13:34 +0000, Uknown via Digitalmars-d wrote: […]
> GNOME is pretty much OSX + iOS
[…]

Noticeable though that some features appeared in GNOMEShell before appearing in OSX!

-- 
Russel.
===========================================
Dr Russel Winder      t: +44 20 7585 2200
41 Buckmaster Road    m: +44 7770 465 077
London SW11 1EN, UK   w: www.russel.org.uk

On 05/25 12:10, Yatheendra via Digitalmars-d wrote:
> On Saturday, 25 May 2019 at 07:16:59 UTC, Nick Sabalausky (Abscissa) wrote:
> > Thanks for the input, all.
> > 
> > If you don't already know me by know, I'll warn you: There's a lot of ranty-ness the further this gets. But I *do* have a (tentative) plan...
> > 
> > [...]
> 
> Have you looked at
>         https://elementary.io/
> You have to pay for it, but it is a pretty good Linux option (for you too,
> if I may guess at from your comments).

You don't have to pay for it, it's sufficient to put 0$ under the "Custom" menu and you can download it for free. Donations are just encouraged, I guess.

I've used EOS for this exact purpose a while ago (introducing a friend to linux), but it seemed a bit confusing since its DE relies heavily on "magic" screen angles and mouse scrolling to move between windows and workspaces. Could be good with a powerful laptop though, especially if the user in question comes from the OSX environment.

IMHO the easiest and most complete DE for a beginner is Cinnamon with Linux Mint, but if your laptop / PC is constrained on resources I strongly advise setting up Devuan with XFCE:

https://devuan.org/

It is apt-based, lightweight and doesn't use systemd, which makes it a lot easier to reason about and straightforward if you need to debug some system errors.

On 5/25/19 9:34 AM, Uknown wrote:
> 
> MTP works fine with Android. However, MTP by design is very unreliable. Its practically useless for large files. With android phones though, KDE connect helps a lot.

Thanks. (I wonder if KDE connect can be used outside of KDE Plasma...)

>   If you want to transfer large videos to the iPhone, you can try MTP. If it doesn't work, iTunes on Wine might be the way to go.

More concerned with copying videos off of the iPhone, given her limited storage space on it. But thanks, didn't realize iTunes on Wine might be viable.

> You can also install the latest LibreOffice as a back up, and configure it to use the ribbon UI. https://itsfoss.com/libreoffice-5-3-released/ Its just selecting the right view in the view menu.

Ooh, I had no idea LibreOffice supported the ribbon interface now! Personally, I can take it or leave it, but she definitely prefers it.

> GNOME is pretty much OSX + iOS

The previous time I had tried GNOME3 it seemed quite esoteric, but on latest Ubuntu I'd definitely agree with you that it's pretty much OSX + iOS (but with the rather odd..."feature"...of certain windows being immovable...) It's definitely what I'd recommend for any Mac fan. I wonder how much customizing Canonical does over top the stock GNOME3.

> Never worth converting the DE on most Distros. Use what ever you got. Otehrwise you end up with broken system or a lot of bloat.

Yea, certainly seems to be the case.

> Dell laptops are actually sold with Linux (developer editions)

Yes, Dell is definitely on my mind. Only problem is their website makes it nearly impossible to search for the small handful of models that still have an option of built-in optical drive, and compare them. Pretty much have to check every...single...model...they sell...individually, and they have TONS.

> USB3 HDDs are fairly cheap.

Oh yea. I've got a 5TB right here I got for not much more than $100. Very nice.

> Unfortunately we don't have a proper file system other than good old FAT32. You can try ExFat, but you will need to install extra software (I think its not necessary for Lubuntu)

I've found that whatever default filesystem they format them to these days has been working perfectly fine for me (Manjaro). Hmm, it appears to be NTFS (just checked). Linux does have pretty decent support for NTFS these days in my experience (I've been using my old Windows partition as just extra storage space).

> Kill switches are offered by the Purism brand laptops : https://puri.sm/products/
> They also satisfy most of the other requirements.
> They're a privacy oriented brand, and they have linux pre-installed. might be worth checking out. I have no experience with their products though.

Yea, I'm familiar with Purism and would love to get one, but they don't have anything at all with built-in optical drive. And I really get tired of my so-called "portable" devices requiring ever-increasingly more and more peripherals. Kinda defeats the point of a portable. Guess I'll have to make a choice between built-in optical vs hardware killswitches for my next machine.